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GPs pocket millions from secret taxpayer-funded scheme
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Amnesia10
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Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:02 am Posts: 29240 Location: Guantanamo Bay (thanks bobbdobbs)
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healt ... cheme.htmlThis is a joke.  I think that the coalition reform this without much effort but will they?
_________________Do concentrate, 007... "You are gifted. Mine is bordering on seven seconds." https://www.dropbox.com/referrals/NTg5MzczNTkhttp://astore.amazon.co.uk/wwwx404couk-21
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Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:05 pm |
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adidan
I haven't seen my friends in so long
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:43 pm Posts: 5048
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Exasperation is the word that springs to mind.
_________________ Fogmeister I ventured into Solitude but didn't really do much. jonbwfc I was behind her in a queue today - but I wouldn't describe it as 'bushy'.
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Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:22 pm |
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Amnesia10
Legend
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:02 am Posts: 29240 Location: Guantanamo Bay (thanks bobbdobbs)
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Yes designing a system that is so abused needs stopping.
_________________Do concentrate, 007... "You are gifted. Mine is bordering on seven seconds." https://www.dropbox.com/referrals/NTg5MzczNTkhttp://astore.amazon.co.uk/wwwx404couk-21
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Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:40 pm |
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cloaked_wolf
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm Posts: 10022
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Oh FFS. I read this earlier. The entire article is shambolic.
A GP can see patients and is paid for seeing each one. But they have to have a place to do it in. So a GP can either rent a place or they can buy a place. Either way, they get a "notional" rent from the NHS and it in no way covers either the rent or the mortgage. The building is still owned by someone - either the GP if they've bought it or whoever the GP is renting it from. The building belongs to whoever owns it, not the NHS. Hence, if a GP retires, they can choose to sell the building or rent it to the incoming GP.
In the olden days, before any of us on this forum were born, GPs used to hold surgeries in the front room of their own home. If the NHS paid notional rent, that doesn't mean it automatically "owns" the house.
FFS. Shoddy journalism. This "secret" scheme has been going on since the inception of the NHS. The journalist is about fifty years behind.
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Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:51 pm |
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cloaked_wolf
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm Posts: 10022
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In fact, read the comments posted by sensible people.
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Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:53 pm |
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belchingmatt
I haven't seen my friends in so long
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 3:16 am Posts: 6146 Location: Middle Earth
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I had my polio vaccination in a Doctor's front room surgery. I don't think I'm that old.
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Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:53 am |
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cloaked_wolf
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm Posts: 10022
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I was talking about before the formation of the NHS. I know of a few GPs who still did this until in the last 15-20 years.
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Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:31 am |
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Linux_User
I haven't seen my friends in so long
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 3:29 pm Posts: 7173
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To be fair, how is that any different to the 2nd home allowance awarded to MPs - who were then free to keep or sell the property at a profit - and subsequent debacle?
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Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:46 pm |
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cloaked_wolf
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm Posts: 10022
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Have a read of the comments. There's some input from GPs who explain things in a bit more detail than I knew. and  |  |  |  | Quote: The authors are right that the system is inequitable and arcane. There are three systems: notional rent, cost rent and rent reimbursements. I asked for this information a few years ago and some practices get £4 per patient per year for the premises and some £35 per patient per year.
Compare this to the £65 per patient per year that the average GMS practice gets for providing the services: consultations doctor, nurse, reception, secretary pay, heating, cleaning, building maintenance, stationery, phone calls, stock control, furniture etc. £35 for just the building is disproportionate.
The rent reimbursement is for the capital investment in the building. Someone has to stomp up the cash and take the risk.
In 1997 I invested £80,000 in upgrading a practice, but when it was sold in 2001 I only received £40,000 back. The loss can only be offset if I make a 'profit' on my current building. This was after tax money, my savings.
I had to secure my home to get the £140,000 loan for the new building in 2001, then had to upgrade the building in 2004, costing another £80,000. So even if I sell it in 15 years when I retire, I have to sell for £260,000 just to break even having not recieved any interest on the capital invested. If I sell now, or fall ill and cannot continue to work I lose again on the building. That's why the rent-reimbursement exists, it is to compensate for not receiving interest on the capital invested.
As with any investment there is a short term risk for hopefully a long term return. Perhaps the journalists would want to buy their desk / office, secure the loan on their house, and hope that they can sell it off when they retire, all without getting anything in return?
Instead of going on about the amounts it may be more helpful to suggest how a cheaper system could be run, and look into the differences in reimbursements - a tenfold difference if you look at per-patient-per-year cost is unlikely to be justifiable (and the higher payments go to practices where the doctors do not own the practices and they are run by the health authorities or private companies). Just launch FOI requests at the PCT to get the figures and then produce something worth the title investigative journalism.
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Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:35 pm |
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jonbwfc
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:26 pm Posts: 17040
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Small point - over the 25 year period of my mortgage, the total interest repaid is more than the value of the property when purchased. To say 'all' the taxpayer has funded is the interest is rather disingenuous. The original article is almost certainly equally so, but you don't make a strong rebuttal by pulling the same tricks as the other bloke.
Jon
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Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:22 pm |
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cloaked_wolf
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm Posts: 10022
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From what I can tell, the "rent" given to the practice can vary and can be more than or less than the mortgage interest.
There's no way the NHS could afford the cost of a surgery for 40,000 GPs. Remember, the alternative is PFI and that will always be more expensive.
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Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:25 pm |
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