Well if the do this...

Then how exactly would that not be a matter of law? Did the Germans have a plan to gently suggest that people should learn their language or else would they kindly leave?


No new laws or policies of any kind are required to make it wrong to kill people in Germany. I explicitly stated that freedom and liberty are conditional on obeying laws in any society. So I fail to see how this translates into needing to change the law to make people learn German. You appear to be confusing the issue.


so what is your point? You chose to learn the lingo, some don't make that choice. Are saying they should have this freedom removed for their own benefit, or perhaps to make them more free (by forcing them to be free against their will)? Or are you saying that their reckless indifference to German is a matter of public harm. Somehow, by not learning German, they are doing something wrong to you?

It's no good just saying, "I don't see why people shouldn't lose this or that minor freedom." You are meant to have a damn good reason before you make other people's choices for them.

Until councils and others refuse to translate into other languages many will never feel the need to integrate.

If I moved to another country I would learn that language, I would not expect to speak English.

Aside from everything else, you learn so much more about people and their community through their language.

I was thinking of moving abroad at some point but because of my memory I would have to go to a country where English is common. So that would be former colonies or Scandinavia. I find learning a language next to impossible, but other than that I do integrate well.

Sounds fair enough to me. I've always said if I ever emmigrated it would have to be to an English speaking country as I couldn't be bothered to learn a new language. I think people who move here should learn to speak English too.
I don't have an issue with people working here on a temporary basic who can't speak English, business is a global thing after all. But coming to live here perminentally (and vice versa)? Then you need to speak the lingo.

If you are on holiday or a short stay then fine, but as you said any longer you should make an effort.

Hitler's 1933 speech with subtitles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5DabTal ... re=related

a unified Germany, only needs to have the same flag and a marching tune, and off they go again under the same banner

here we go again ...

Ignore the troll.

So what's the problem? If somebody leaves Turkey to live among lots of their Turkish family abroad, why do they really need to learn a new language themselves? They still have plenty of people to talk to without that hassle. The level of German this hypothetical person need learn is enough to do what? Buy a packet of cigarettes.

I see lots of agreement with this reactionary proposal, but not a shred of justification. Nobody can explain why every individual should be forced to learn German. Why isn't it ok for the Turkish community to contain some who are fluent, whereas others can just about order a packet of cigarettes? If the added convenience of being able to speak German doesn't convince a person to learn, doesn't that just prove it isn't a necessity for that person? If so, then what is the rationale for interference with their liberty? Don't you people like liberty?

If you can't speak/read the lingo, how are you meant to milk the welfare system?

There is no proposal. There is nothing to justify. There is no interference with no liberty nor has anyone proposed it.

She never said anything like "Anyone who does not immediately speak German is not welcome". In fact she said the exact opposite.

What Merkel actually did was criticise a specific policy that has been followed in Germany since the Seventies and hasn't produced the results that people wanted. She was criticising the very laissez-faire attitude of successive German administrations that not only didn't help foreigners integrate but in fact made it harder.

She referred to President Wulff's comments where he said that Islam was "a part of Germany" alongside Christianity and Judaism. She also very clearly stated that, in trying to help foreigners integrate, she didn't want German language skills to be a barrier.



Merkel was not saying that multiculturalism has failed. She was saying that the specific "Multikulti" government policy followed in Germany has failed and that she wants to try something new. She is trying to stop a move to the right, not encourage it.

The UK media's reporting of this has been utterly woeful.

maybe Merkel is building a new type of Volksgemeinschaft using the Gemeinschaft und Gesellschaft theory ...

But our man on the scene said

So it clearly has been proposed.

Yes I noticed that, but I'm not the one who created the topic with the title indicating otherwise.
Not that it matters much, the operative word here is 'immediately' and the opposite that she is proposing is 'not immediately'. she is still saying that those who opt not to learn German are unwelcome after a while. Our definitions of opposite don't appear to tally.


She also said that "the demand for integration is one of our key tasks for the time to come" (my emphasis). That is clearly saying that integration (i.e. learning the language) is a requisite.


She said "this multicultural approach - saying that we simply live side by side and are happy about each other - this approach has failed, utterly failed" (my emphasis again)

Her message is clear, that Germans want to say they are not happy about these immigrants because they are not perceived to have made enough effort to live as their German peers do. They want to tell them to change.

Say what you like about the merits of the case, it cannot be clearer that it is a rejection of multiculturalism. It may only be intended as a partial one (hey, have your religion, eat your food, but talk our talk) but that is erroneous.

The important casualty of this approach is pluralism - the principle that are multiple ways to lead a meaningful life, and that all are equally valid. Merkel is saying that people are choosing wrongly and that it is appropriate to demand changes of them.

I'm sure all the people who propose and back this sort of measure are perfectly reasonable, middle of the road chaps. But it is necessary to understand what the average reasonable person actually believes. We are all liberals on some issues, and pretty much fascists on others. This is why we establish these principles, and sometimes we have to give up on our little impulses, even if they do seem utterly reasonable in themselves, because the principles matter and eroding them is dangerous.

It was a suggestion for a change to the laws, back around 2004. It never got anywhere.


And I am just saying, that a minority of immigrants want to live in Germany, but obey the laws of their home country. The problem goes a lot deeper than whether people speak German or not.

It is like talking about a minimum price for alcohol, that won't do anything to affect alcoholism.


I just can't see the point of moving to another country and not being able to talk the language. How are we supposed to work, communicate with authorities, apply for a living permit etc. if we can't speak the language. When I applied for my Aufenthaltgenehmigung, I had to speak German, the same was true of the Turkish family in front of me and the Armenian behind me. The civil servants can't speak every language, so they expect the applicants to be able to speak the official language of the country or pay for their own interpreter. To me, that just makes sense.

Impinging on what freedom? Nobody is stopping them using their first language at home or with friends. In fact Merkel has said, that she welcomes people coming to the country, that they don't have to speak German when they arrive.

But, from my point of view, having lived here, how are we supposed to be able to work or apply for jobs or benefit, if we can't communicate?

According to Merkel, there isn't a problem, they are welcome to come.

But, to apply for jobs, to apply for benefits, to apply for a document which means you have the right to stay in the country, to shop, to answer questions in the shop, they need rudimentary German language skills. Nobody is talking about stopping tourists or people coming over for a couple of months to visit. We are talking about people who want to make the country their new home.

Interestingly, British ex-pats in Germany are often very bad - probably because so many Germans speak English. I keep getting people telling me how good my German is and that they have British friends who have been in Germany for decades and don't speak as well as I do...


This is the problem Merkel wants to address and the problem that the "Multikulti" (multi-cultural) policy hasn't been able to address for the last several decades.

They will always remain outsiders, they will always feel an outsider in society. How are they supposed to integrate into the life and culture of the country they are living in, if they can't communicate outside a small clique of their own countrymen?