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Water charges in Ireland cause widespread street protests 
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Doesn't have much of a life

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jonbwfc wrote:
Well, if everyone is going to use it - which with water supply is pretty much true - why not use the existing mechanism of revenue generation i.e. taxation to get people to 'pay' for it, which is that they have been doing, rather than spending money to set up a whole new mechanism specifically to do so? In practical terms how is the system they're setting up better than the one they already have?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

Water is a common, a public good. It is used unequally by industry, agriculture and general bods. Pricing by use influences use and encourages conservation. Funding through general taxation encourages profligacy.

The trick lies in getting the price right.


Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:49 pm
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I haven't seen my friends in so long
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jonbwfc wrote:
hifidelity2 wrote:
The state does not want to finance the cost of major improvement works - it wants the users to pay for it.

Well, if everyone is going to use it - which with water supply is pretty much true - why not use the existing mechanism of revenue generation i.e. taxation to get people to 'pay' for it, which is that they have been doing, rather than spending money to set up a whole new mechanism specifically to do so? In practical terms how is the system they're setting up better than the one they already have? Or is it actually just a way of getting a valuable asset out of 'state' hands as a preparation for actual privatisation at some point?


But everyone is not going to use it the same – I have a flat and use a shower, you have a house and love gardening – Also when there is no cost to the user there is no incentive for anyone to reduce their water usage


hifidelity2 wrote:
The state owned company needs to make a profit so that it can spread the cost of improving the pipes (say) over a number of years - it will make a profit in the years when no major investment is needed and put that towards the costs when it needs to invest - and if its a large investment it will borrow the money on the open market and will use the profit to pay back the cost of the loan

jonbwfc wrote:
With all due respect, you're presenting one model as demonstrable fact, when it is simply not. There's no reason the supplier of water 'needs' to make a profit, it can be run on an entirely non-commercial footing. Profit doesn't have to come into it at all. You can choose the 'investment via profit' model if you wish, but there are several high profile examples where it's proved to be less efficient than the alternatives. Not every model works in every circumstance.

It needs to make a profit so it can pay for investments. If the company breaks even and then the following year needs to spend £1million for putting in a new pipe down your street it can’t just increase the cost to the users for that year – bills would spike

hifidelity2 wrote:
The problem with relying on the state to pay the cost of improving the drains is that there is always something more important to spend the money on

jonbwfc wrote:
See my post earlier. Cut your water off or seal up your sewage outlet and see how many other things are more important to you a few hours later. The fact politicians believe these things to be less important does not make it so. By the looks of things, some chunk of the voting population don't agree with them either.

Unfortunately if it’s a choice between a new hospital or fix the leaky pipe the new hospital will get the press coverage, the votes (and so the money)

Assuming the state is not willing to increase taxes then you need to either ring fence or find some other way
Also no one want to pay for something that was “free”. Its the same in the UK with the NHS. Many European countries with the health service have some charge (which you can claim back) but if that option is ever mooted there is such a storm that its dropped because we are wedded to the totally free model. However a small fee of £10 to see your GP may well reduce demand as people with a cold may just stay at home rather than bother their GP who can do nothing for them.

jonbwfc wrote:
Your argument is actually that the Irish should get rid of their politicians, not that they should privatise their water supply.

No it isn’t its actually saying that past politicians kicked the ball down the road (like they all do) until it became so bad that they had to do something and these lot are left to pick up the pieces. If they weren’t being forced by the EU to do this they would have done nothing

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John_Vella wrote:
OK, so all we need to do is find a half African, half Chinese, half Asian, gay, one eyed, wheelchair bound dwarf with tourettes and a lisp, and a st st stutter and we could make the best panel show ever.


Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:29 am
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What's a life?
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hifidelity2 wrote:
But everyone is not going to use it the same – I have a flat and use a shower, you have a house and love gardening – Also when there is no cost to the user there is no incentive for anyone to reduce their water usage

True, but the whole point of the 'social pact' that taxation is is that we all pay in as much as we r'e judged able to afford regardless of what we actually use, for the common good. You may use more water than I do but I may use public transport more than you do. Even so, society is not a 'zero sum game'; we don't all participate in society based entirely on getting as much in as we get out. That's not what society is.

hifidelity2 wrote:
It needs to make a profit so it can pay for investments. If the company breaks even and then the following year needs to spend £1million for putting in a new pipe down your street it can’t just increase the cost to the users for that year – bills would spike.

Unfortunately if it’s a choice between a new hospital or fix the leaky pipe the new hospital will get the press coverage, the votes (and so the money)

Assuming the state is not willing to increase taxes then you need to either ring fence or find some other way

Yes, if you're assuming the water system is being treated on a commercial basis. Which there's no definite reason it should. It doesn't need to make profit to make investments if it's seen by society (and it's agent the government) as a vital service that must be supplied and that supply must be ensured. You're still in the mindset of treating water supply as a business. You can treat is as a business, indeed you can actually run it as a business, but there's no absolute reason it can only be done that way.

It's not even the case that a countries economy is a closed system so money for A means less money for B. A government can create money any time it feels like it. There are consequences to that but they can be managed in a variety of ways and it's essentially a political choice which of those consequences people are prepared to accept.

Everything does not have to be a business. Many things are best run as businesses, absolutely. I am of the opinion that the things that are essential to life are not best run as a business, because businesses inevitably have to discriminate good customers from bad customers and in the case of water supply what are you going to do, cut people's water off? That['s not exactly going to play well in the press either.

I absolutely agree you will always get uproar when you start charging people for something they have previously had without an obvious charge for - as stated, people have actually been paying towards the upkeep of the water supply, they just didn't know it. But there are certain essential services that as a politician you mess with at your peril, definitely including any notion you're preparing them for privatisation, and the water supply is one of those.

hifidelity2 wrote:
jonbwfc wrote:
Your argument is actually that the Irish should get rid of their politicians, not that they should privatise their water supply.

No it isn’t its actually saying that past politicians kicked the ball down the road (like they all do) until it became so bad that they had to do something and these lot are left to pick up the pieces. If they weren’t being forced by the EU to do this they would have done nothing

True, true. But let's not assume 'privatise it' is by definition the best solution. It's simply most of our current political class's first choice.


Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:38 am
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Doesn't have much of a life

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jonbwfc wrote:
Yes, if you're assuming the water system is being treated on a commercial basis. Which there's no definite reason it should. It doesn't need to make profit to make investments if it's seen by society (and it's agent the government) as a vital service that must be supplied and that supply must be ensured. You're still in the mindset of treating water supply as a business. You can treat is as a business, indeed you can actually run it as a business, but there's no absolute reason it can only be done that way.

Indeed. It could be a club, a charity, or a shared consensual hallucination.

It will still have assets worth billions and thousands of employees who expect to have pensions. It will need to invest further billions in infrastructure projects, decommission old plant, protect itself from the same lawsuits that companies do. It will need predictable revenue streams, contracts and credit terms with suppliers and customers.

It will be a corporate entity, but you can give it a friendlier name if that makes it sound nicer.


Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:59 pm
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