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pcernie wrote:
How is the intention based on a misunderstanding? :|

I answered that, why did you cut it from your quote?
ShockWaffle wrote:
It's no good saying "this is only a light hearted joke" while you throttle a puppy or drown a kitten in your toilet. You will offend somebody by that action, and they will not take little account of your protestations.



An action is light hearted if nobody involved feels it is dreadful, unfair and abusive. If somebody causes grave offence by an act which they presume to be light hearted, they have misunderstood the implications of the act. Or else, if they do know, then they don't care about other people's feelings as long as they are having a good time. Light hearted fun is not a sufficient excuse for being a crass, insensitive [LIFTED].


Mon May 24, 2010 12:54 am
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ShockWaffle wrote:
But that doesn't mean that none of their feelings count, or that our free speech legislation means we have moral authority to piss on them for fun.

No but it does give us the right to doodle a cartoon, even if someone else finds it offensive.

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Amnesia10 wrote:
Yes but the opportunity to legally kill someone with a giant dildo does not happen every day.

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Mon May 24, 2010 7:15 am
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I see it as two issues.

On the one hand there are people drawing said fictional character with no other means but to provoke and cause offense.

On the other hand if someone is creating art, satire, or some other genuine works and that happens to cause offense to a particular religious group then as far as I'm concerned they can do one.

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Last edited by veato on Mon May 24, 2010 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon May 24, 2010 8:22 am
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bobbdobbs wrote:
ShockWaffle wrote:
But that doesn't mean that none of their feelings count, or that our free speech legislation means we have moral authority to piss on them for fun.

No but it does give us the right to doodle a cartoon, even if someone else finds it offensive.

That's just a rhetorical trick designed to disguise the imbalance of perception and justify tactlessly steam-rolling the feelings of others.

If I draw a picture of a cartoon cat saying "Pakis go home" on a council estate, or perhaps a bridge across a motorway, I would correctly be taken to task for offensive and threatening behaviour. If I try to defend my actions as free speech, or nothing more than a " doodle", all sane people would recognise that the former was not valid, and the latter a gross misinterpretation.

The terms "doodle" and "cartoon" technically refer to the medium by which the message is delivered. Their apparent harmlessness is not part of the medium, it is related to the inoffensive nature of the standard output in that medium, and is therefore a value judgment. If we then create a doodle that is not harmless, we can still refer to it as "doodle", but it is disingenuous to extend the general perception of this as harmless to the particular, and unusually divisive, example.

We are a moral society, and therefore have a set of moral duties towards each other. Among these is a basic civil attitude towards each other's feeling, which we should not hurt without consideration. There are times when we absolutely should say things that might cause hurt feelings, but they should be justified. To do say or do things which cause alarm and pain for no reason other than taking a delight in causing them, or just refusing to consider somebody's pain, is not valiant, or worthy of praise.

Sacrilegious cartoons are not in and of themselves important to draw, they carry no important message and do nothing to help reconcile differing world views. By refusing to consider the hurt feelings they cause, or by choosing to justify that as a failing on the part of anyone who takes offence, we demonstrate a paternalist arrogance that is corrosive to our moral authority in general and create an air of deep mistrust that makes it harder to communicate with other civilisations on a reasonable basis.


Mon May 24, 2010 8:32 am
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ShockWaffle wrote:
pcernie wrote:
How is the intention based on a misunderstanding? :|

I answered that, why did you cut it from your quote?
ShockWaffle wrote:
It's no good saying "this is only a light hearted joke" while you throttle a puppy or drown a kitten in your toilet. You will offend somebody by that action, and they will not take little account of your protestations.



An action is light hearted if nobody involved feels it is dreadful, unfair and abusive. If somebody causes grave offence by an act which they presume to be light hearted, they have misunderstood the implications of the act. Or else, if they do know, then they don't care about other people's feelings as long as they are having a good time. Light hearted fun is not a sufficient excuse for being a crass, insensitive [LIFTED].


I was talking about the intention being light-hearted though, not the subsequent action.

veato wrote:
I see it as two issues.

On the one hand there are people drawing said fictional character with not means but to provoke and cause offense.

On the other hand if someone is creating art, satire, or some other genuine works and that happens to cause offense to a particular religious group then as far as I'm concerned they can do one.


+1, as I've said, it'd be a less humouress world for everyone day to day otherwise.

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Mon May 24, 2010 12:17 pm
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We should just end the blasphemy laws it stops them trying to get included in the definition of blasphemy.

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Mon May 24, 2010 12:40 pm
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Amnesia10 wrote:
We should just end the blasphemy laws it stops them trying to get included in the definition of blasphemy.

+1
How can you blaspheme against an imaginary friend?

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johnwbfc wrote:
I care not which way round it is as long as at some point some sort of semi-naked wrestling is involved.

Amnesia10 wrote:
Yes but the opportunity to legally kill someone with a giant dildo does not happen every day.

Finally joined Flickr


Mon May 24, 2010 1:31 pm
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bobbdobbs wrote:
Amnesia10 wrote:
We should just end the blasphemy laws it stops them trying to get included in the definition of blasphemy.

+1
How can you blaspheme against an imaginary friend?

Have you seen the response when you tell him he does not exist? :shock:

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Mon May 24, 2010 2:09 pm
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