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Fewer students 'will take residential degrees'
http://www.x404.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=10460		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Amnesia10 [ Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Fewer students 'will take residential degrees'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/ed ... grees.html

Quote:
Three-year residential degrees are likely to be limited to undergraduates at top research universities because of public spending restrictions, it was claimed.
The study by Universities UK, which represents vice-chancellors, suggests the emergence of a two-tier higher education system in the future as universities struggle to accommodate large numbers of new students.
The conclusions – published to coincide with the group’s annual conference on Wednesday – come weeks after record numbers of students were rejected from university.
Author:  forquare1 [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fewer students 'will take residential degrees'
To be honest I think if people want a degree in todays society then the best course of action is to do it part time while doing something related to the degree, the problem is that's pretty much an apprenticeship...
Author:  big_D [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fewer students 'will take residential degrees'
forquare1 wrote:
To be honest I think if people want a degree in todays society then the best course of action is to do it part time while doing something related to the degree, the problem is that's pretty much an apprenticeship...

Why is that a problem? Here in Germany, you need to do an apprenticeship for most jobs and professions, a degree is only really useful for academic jobs, law, medicine, research and IT.
Author:  forquare1 [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fewer students 'will take residential degrees'
big_D wrote:
forquare1 wrote:
To be honest I think if people want a degree in todays society then the best course of action is to do it part time while doing something related to the degree, the problem is that's pretty much an apprenticeship...

Why is that a problem?


Because I don't think you should blur the lines. A degree should show more academic success whereas an apprenticeship shows different success.
Doing a physics degree shows that you know the theory behind the topics you learnt and aids you in a career in academia or research, if you did an apprenticeship in a physics lab you would learn the theory you needed to know to do the job as well as how to actually do the job aiding you in careers with a more hands on aspect.

It's why I think that subjects such as drama don't make good degree courses as they seem to focus on more practical elements as apposed to academic elements. In computer science you have theory of languages, methodologies, etc. Even in art Faye does theory of photography, researching into traditional methods, the practical elements of her course backup the academic elements.

I've said many times, after graduating I feel my degree would be best suited in an academic or a research based career, not as a practising sys admin/programmer/etc.
Author:  Amnesia10 [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fewer students 'will take residential degrees'
big_D wrote:
forquare1 wrote:
To be honest I think if people want a degree in todays society then the best course of action is to do it part time while doing something related to the degree, the problem is that's pretty much an apprenticeship...

Why is that a problem? Here in Germany, you need to do an apprenticeship for most jobs and professions, a degree is only really useful for academic jobs, law, medicine, research and IT.

I have no problem with the way that the germans do it. It would be better for industry overall if people had better job specific training. Apprenticeships should be given more support rather than thinking of them as industrial. Too many people go to university because they have been told to. They end up getting degrees that are not suitable for future employment. It is amazing how both Tories and New Labour have screwed up university education overall.
Author:  MrStevenRogers [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fewer students 'will take residential degrees'
Amnesia10 wrote:
<snip> It is amazing how both Tories and New Labour have screwed up university education overall.


+1

and the coalition are going to do no better in this regard ...
Author:  big_D [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fewer students 'will take residential degrees'
Thanks Amnesia, that is what I meant, why is having an apprenticeship a problem? Most jobs don't need a degree and in more practical subjects, it is pretty irrelevant.

The German system uses apprenticeship to give training for a specific job. If you then want to be a manager or run your own business in that branch, you need to get a Master's Certificate, which means that you have studied the theory of your industry and learnt how to run your own business and do basic bookkeeping etc.
Author:  belchingmatt [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fewer students 'will take residential degrees'
big_D wrote:
forquare1 wrote:
To be honest I think if people want a degree in todays society then the best course of action is to do it part time while doing something related to the degree, the problem is that's pretty much an apprenticeship...

Why is that a problem? Here in Germany, you need to do an apprenticeship for most jobs and professions, a degree is only really useful for academic jobs, law, medicine, research and IT.


I've often wondered about medicine. Why study for so many years to be a gp/surgeon and then specialise in heart surgery for example. Why not just apprentice to be a heart surgeon, learn only specific cardiac techniques and anatomy in a fraction of the time?
Author:  Amnesia10 [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fewer students 'will take residential degrees'
Yes but with medicine there are unusual effects which being too specialised too early might mean that the overall care plummets. Medicine requires a good level of all round skills even if you have a specialisation. A bit like law. I cannot see the point of making nursing a degree course. It is a skilled job and should be treated as such but if it requires academic skills then many interpersonal skills may be missed out on. With nurses you need the other skills possibly even more than the academic skills if your job is care. Being able to insert a catheter is a skill that does not require a degree.

I would prefer a return to the levels of the 70's where far fewer went to university but you had to be well above average to get in. With the current regime you just have to be average or above to get in. I would also like to see a return to free education. If they earn more then they will be paying it back through the income tax system. If they do not earn that much extra then they might actually be benefitting the rest of society some other way. Spending three years in university ending up in serious debt and then ending up in a call centre is not a good use of educational resources.
Author:  forquare1 [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fewer students 'will take residential degrees'
big_D wrote:
Thanks Amnesia, that is what I meant, why is having an apprenticeship a problem?


I didn't mean that having an apprenticeship was a problem, I mean that a degree shouldn't do the job of an apprenticeship, they should be two separate things.
Author:  Amnesia10 [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fewer students 'will take residential degrees'
forquare1 wrote:
big_D wrote:
Thanks Amnesia, that is what I meant, why is having an apprenticeship a problem?


I didn't mean that having an apprenticeship was a problem, I mean that a degree shouldn't do the job of an apprenticeship, they should be two separate things.

I agree but the attitude of the establishment is that apprenticeships are working class and university is middle and upper class. They do very different things but they are both equally valid. The german system of extending apprenticeships to modern careers does take them more valuable to everyone. They would also make the employee more valuable to the company and so enabling higher wages which is good for the employee and the economy as a whole.
Author:  hifidelity2 [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fewer students 'will take residential degrees'
forquare1 wrote:
To be honest I think if people want a degree in todays society then the best course of action is to do it part time while doing something related to the degree, the problem is that's pretty much an apprenticeship...



Its called the Open University. I started a Physics Degree course via the OU. I am about 2/3rd they way though although I have taken a few yrs off and must get back into it.
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