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UK games tax relief 'off the table for four years'
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Author:  pcernie [ Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  UK games tax relief 'off the table for four years'
The UK government has poured cold water on hopes that the games industry tax relief debate will be resurrected in the near future.

Responding to questions in a select committee, culture minister Ed Vaizey said that if the industry continues to focus on tax relief in its lobbying efforts, there could be "a hiatus for three or four years [or more] before it realistically comes back onto the table".

That would seem to suggest the government is unlikely to evaluate the case for tax breaks again until around the time of the next election.

According to GameSpot, Vaizey also said "there are other ways we can support [the games industry]", perhaps through regional growth funds and some form of "direct support" from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.

Asked whether a tax break was completely off the radar, he said he would "encourage TIGA in particular to look at other creative options".

Last month, TIGA hit out at the UK government's "extraordinary" reluctance to introduce a tax break for UK game development.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/ar ... ?id=278973
Author:  tombolt [ Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  UK games tax relief 'off the table for four years'
I don't get a tax break, why the [LIFTED] should they?
Author:  ProfessorF [ Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UK games tax relief 'off the table for four years'
Because games developers like to think they do something important.
Author:  finlay666 [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: UK games tax relief 'off the table for four years'
tombolt wrote:
I don't get a tax break, why the [LIFTED] should they?


Because a huge number of UK developers are leaving the UK to go to Canada and mainland Europe where there are tax breaks. The UK was one of the biggest sources of computer games outside the USA and Japan. Now Canada, France, even the Eastern block countries are encroaching on this area. The companies are getting heavily taxed and as a result a number of UK companies have gone under (Free Radicals (Timesplitters), Ubisoft Newcastle (formerly Reflections) (Driver), Midway Newcastle (Formerly Pitbull syndicate) (Test Drive, Wheelman) , Mere Mortals to name just 4 companies (3 of those local to the North East) off the top of my head)

Personally given the rich heritage in computing the UK has I think there needs to be Software development tax breaks in general, as there are large numbers of skilled workers who are contemplating going abroad as they can get paid a lot more for doing the same work purely because the company isn't paying as much tax. Just look at the state of the heritage in Bletchley Park, and they can't even afford Alan Turing's papers in auction, even with £100,000 of help from Google.

If it wasn't for issues in getting Visas in some countries I would love to work in I doubt I would be in the UK any more tbh...
Author:  jonbwfc [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: UK games tax relief 'off the table for four years'
finlay666 wrote:
The companies are getting heavily taxed and as a result a number of UK companies have gone under (Free Radicals (Timesplitters), Ubisoft Newcastle (formerly Reflections) (Driver), Midway Newcastle (Formerly Pitbull syndicate) (Test Drive, Wheelman) , Mere Mortals to name just 4 companies (3 of those local to the North East) off the top of my head)

To be fair, most of those went under because they spent a huge amount of money making games that turned out to be complete pish that nobody bought. The tax situation was merely a consequence of that.

Jon
Author:  adidan [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: UK games tax relief 'off the table for four years'
finlay666 wrote:
Because a huge number of UK developers are leaving the UK to go to Canada and mainland Europe where there are tax breaks.

This.

Many areas get tax breaks, I'd rather see a tax break for the games industry to help their competitveness and their ability to employ and retain highly skilled staff than to see yet another industry disappear. I don't see a problem with helping out success stories.
Author:  dogbert10 [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: UK games tax relief 'off the table for four years'
jonbwfc wrote:
finlay666 wrote:
The companies are getting heavily taxed and as a result a number of UK companies have gone under (Free Radicals (Timesplitters), Ubisoft Newcastle (formerly Reflections) (Driver), Midway Newcastle (Formerly Pitbull syndicate) (Test Drive, Wheelman) , Mere Mortals to name just 4 companies (3 of those local to the North East) off the top of my head)

To be fair, most of those went under because they spent a huge amount of money making games that turned out to be complete pish that nobody bought. The tax situation was merely a consequence of that.

Jon



Couldn't agree more - It's a crowded area, so to survive you have to do something good and original - if you don't then it's nobody's fault but your own and you deserve to fail. Far too many companies in this country think they can survive by producing tat and then running cap in hand to the Government when thing go wrong.
Author:  Linux_User [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: UK games tax relief 'off the table for four years'
I don't see individuals getting tax breaks to stop them pissing off abroad. If these companies are so shallow as to expect special treatment to work in the UK, then let them sod off frankly.
Author:  finlay666 [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UK games tax relief 'off the table for four years'
jonbwfc wrote:
To be fair, most of those went under because they spent a huge amount of money making games that turned out to be complete pish that nobody bought. The tax situation was merely a consequence of that.

Jon


Most went under because it was cheaper to produce the AAA titles elsewhere such as Canada and the USA where they have the tax breaks so it's cheaper to make them there so they were given the 'worse' games

Linux_User, what about working tax credits? Cash ISA savings accounts? Those are examples of tax breaks for individuals
Author:  adidan [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UK games tax relief 'off the table for four years'
finlay666 wrote:
Linux_User, what about working tax credits? Cash ISA savings accounts? Those are examples of tax breaks for individuals

There's also talk about bringing back a tax breaks for married couples. There are loads out there, people just tend to overlook them if they get them.
Author:  jonbwfc [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UK games tax relief 'off the table for four years'
finlay666 wrote:
jonbwfc wrote:
To be fair, most of those went under because they spent a huge amount of money making games that turned out to be complete pish that nobody bought. The tax situation was merely a consequence of that.

Jon


Most went under because it was cheaper to produce the AAA titles elsewhere such as Canada and the USA where they have the tax breaks so it's cheaper to make them there so they were given the 'worse' games

No, they went under because the games they made didn't sell. Haze, Wheelman, Driver.. three games that cost multimillion pounds to make, three games that got awful reviews, three games that sold 'well below expectations'.

It doesn't matter which country you are in, it doesn't matter what the tax laws are. If you make something that people don't want to buy, you go bust. there is indeed a brain drain to the Canada in the games industry this is true. But using those companies as an example of how the UK tax regime is somehow 'killing UK games development' is bunk. If they'd been in Canada, they'd have gone bust too. If you want a proper example, find me a game comany that made a game that DID sell well and STILL went bust.

Jon
Author:  finlay666 [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UK games tax relief 'off the table for four years'
jonbwfc wrote:
find me a game comany that made a game that DID sell well and STILL went bust.

Core Design (Tomb Raider games)
Bullfrog (Dungeon Keeper, Theme Park, Theme Hospital, Populous) (content bought by EA)
Realtime Worlds (Crackdown)
Free Radical Design (Timesplitters series) (You might rag on one game they did badly but a lot of developers have had a few duffs, difference is with a small studio it can close them)
Empire Interactive (Flatout series) (publisher)
Bizzare Creations (Project Gotham Racing 2/3/4) (announced they are looking to close last month)
Author:  ProfessorF [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UK games tax relief 'off the table for four years'
So is that a fault of the taxation, or a poorly managed business plan?
Author:  finlay666 [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UK games tax relief 'off the table for four years'
ProfessorF wrote:
So is that a fault of the taxation, or a poorly managed business plan?


Arguably both, if it didn't cost them as much to make the games they wouldn't have risked so much, difficult to say for many of them as the issue of taxation is more a war of attrition than a flash in the pan closure after 1 failed game

Dev studios aren't the ones that risk losing the money if a game doesn't sell, it's the publisher. All a dev studio stands to lose is bonuses on a game selling well or on the chance to do follow up DLC in most cases.
Author:  jonbwfc [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: UK games tax relief 'off the table for four years'
finlay666 wrote:
jonbwfc wrote:
find me a game comany that made a game that DID sell well and STILL went bust.

Core Design (Tomb Raider games)
Bullfrog (Dungeon Keeper, Theme Park, Theme Hospital, Populous) (content bought by EA)
Realtime Worlds (Crackdown)
Free Radical Design (Timesplitters series) (You might rag on one game they did badly but a lot of developers have had a few duffs, difference is with a small studio it can close them)
Empire Interactive (Flatout series) (publisher)
Bizzare Creations (Project Gotham Racing 2/3/4) (announced they are looking to close last month)

OK

1) Bizarre haven't gone bust. Their backer say they are looking for a buyer - and this is on the back of Blur and James Bond : Bloodstone. Blue reviewed well but didn't sell, Bloodstone reviewed badly and didn't sell (mainly because it was knocked up in less than a year, apparently).

2) Core - had run the Tomb Raider franchise into the ground before it was taken off them and given to some yanks and hadn't made a decent game in years before they were dissolved by Eidos.

3 ) Bullfrog - also hadn't made a sucessful game in years but were still viable then were bought. Didn't go bust.

4) Realtime worlds.. Hahahaha. Sorry. Realtime worlds are an absolute test case in bad management in the making of APB. Spent (allegedly) 100 million pounds making an MMO that they didn't have a proper idea of how they were going to make money off, found they couldn't make any money off it and went bust. They weren't hard done to, they were bloody clueless.

5) Free Radical - made the lovely timesplitters games then spent the about the next three years making Haze, which was bloody awful. And which nobody bought. They got a ton of money from Sony to make it an exclusive and still went bust. Basically, they over extended and overspent and went bust. Ask any first year management student if that's a surprise.

6) Empire Interactive - They published Flatout for a bunch of Swedes, it's irrelevant to the British game dev community. The kind of games Empire actually wrote themselves were the wonderful 'Big Mother Truckers'.

Bah. There are perfectly viable, logical business reasons who all those companies no longer exist as independent businesses that have nothing to do with the UK tax regime in comparison to any other.
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