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Bristol gay couple win Cornwall B&B bed ban case
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Author:  pcernie [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Bristol gay couple win Cornwall B&B bed ban case

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-12214368

Author:  Amnesia10 [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bristol gay couple win Cornwall B&B bed ban case

Quote:
"Religious freedom shouldn't be used as a cloak for prejudice."

Mike Judge, from the Christian Institute, which funded the Bulls' defence, said: "This ruling is further evidence that equality laws are being used as a sword rather than a shield.

"Peter and Hazelmary were sued with the full backing of the government-funded Equality Commission.

"Christians are being sidelined. The judge recognises that his decision has a profound impact on the religious liberty of Peter and Hazelmary."

No they can still be religious bigots but they cannot discriminate because of it. Simples.

Author:  jonlumb [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bristol gay couple win Cornwall B&B bed ban case

Amnesia10 wrote:
Quote:
"Religious freedom shouldn't be used as a cloak for prejudice."

Mike Judge, from the Christian Institute, which funded the Bulls' defence, said: "This ruling is further evidence that equality laws are being used as a sword rather than a shield.

"Peter and Hazelmary were sued with the full backing of the government-funded Equality Commission.

"Christians are being sidelined. The judge recognises that his decision has a profound impact on the religious liberty of Peter and Hazelmary."

No they can still be religious bigots but they cannot discriminate because of it. Simples.


That's like saying 'it's fine to be gay, you just cannot have sex with another man'.

At the end of the day, whenever you have people who follow given practices and others that oppose those practices, you're always going to end up with divisions.

Author:  Fogmeister [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bristol gay couple win Cornwall B&B bed ban case

jonlumb wrote:
That's like saying 'it's fine to be gay, you just cannot have sex with another man'.

I'm not sure to whom you are referring?

Using religion as a discriminatory reason is very different from having sex with a gay partner.

Would the B&B owners have turned away a devout Islamic family? After all they also go against the Christian "ideal".

Author:  jonlumb [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bristol gay couple win Cornwall B&B bed ban case

As a first port of call, I do need to clarify that I don't agree with the B&B's decision to turn away the couple.

My comment was on Amnesia's phrase about "You're allowed to believe something as long you don't act on it" is the equivalent of saying "you're allowed to be attracted to men, as long as you don't have sex with them"

Author:  rustybucket [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bristol gay couple win Cornwall B&B bed ban case

Good.

Neither this couple nor the Christian Institute seem to have grasped the very simple concept that the law must be blind to matters of religion in order to adequately protect religion. The right to be a Christian is only protected if the right to be a Muslim, Hindu, Atheist or Agnostic is equally protected. Currently we are re-centering from the centuries-old legal position of inherent protection of Anglicanism - this is a good thing not only for other viewpoints but also for Anglicanism as well.

From the ECHR (emphasis mine):

Quote:
Article 9 – Freedom of thought, conscience and religion

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
2. Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

Article 17 – Prohibition of abuse of rights

Nothing in this Convention may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein or at their limitation to a greater extent than is provided for in the Convention.


It's really rather simple.

Author:  Amnesia10 [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bristol gay couple win Cornwall B&B bed ban case

jonlumb wrote:
Amnesia10 wrote:
No they can still be religious bigots but they cannot discriminate because of it. Simples.


That's like saying 'it's fine to be gay, you just cannot have sex with another man'.

At the end of the day, whenever you have people who follow given practices and others that oppose those practices, you're always going to end up with divisions.

How is it being gay but not have sex with another man? Just because someone is gay does not mean that they have the right to preach to you about how great being gay is. Same for Christians or any other religion imposing its views on others. They can still be bigots but they cannot discriminate. Big difference.

Author:  Amnesia10 [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bristol gay couple win Cornwall B&B bed ban case

jonlumb wrote:
As a first port of call, I do need to clarify that I don't agree with the B&B's decision to turn away the couple.

My comment was on Amnesia's phrase about "You're allowed to believe something as long you don't act on it" is the equivalent of saying "you're allowed to be attracted to men, as long as you don't have sex with them"

I can believe that we are ruled by the alien spaghetti monster but that still does not give me the right to discriminate on sexuality or race or religion.

Author:  jonlumb [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bristol gay couple win Cornwall B&B bed ban case

Hmm.

I do wonder how the case would have gone if there had been a requirement for no hanky panky instead of a complete refusal to let them share the room...

Author:  Amnesia10 [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bristol gay couple win Cornwall B&B bed ban case

jonlumb wrote:
Hmm.

I do wonder how the case would have gone if there had been a requirement for no hanky panky instead of a complete refusal to let them share the room...

They are renting a room? The same no hanky-panky requirement could just as easily be applied to anyone who is not married. I think that as long as they do not damage the room what they get up to is up to them.

Author:  belchingmatt [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bristol gay couple win Cornwall B&B bed ban case

jonlumb wrote:
Hmm.

I do wonder how the case would have gone if there had been a requirement for no hanky panky instead of a complete refusal to let them share the room...


I think that the situation you mentioned may have been even more discrimitatory.

Author:  Fogmeister [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bristol gay couple win Cornwall B&B bed ban case

jonlumb wrote:
As a first port of call, I do need to clarify that I don't agree with the B&B's decision to turn away the couple.

My comment was on Amnesia's phrase about "You're allowed to believe something as long you don't act on it" is the equivalent of saying "you're allowed to be attracted to men, as long as you don't have sex with them"

I wasn't asking you to clarify anything. I was assuming your comment was directed at Amnesia and responded as such.

But Amnesia was not saying... "You're allowed to believe something as long you don't act on it".

He said... "No they can still be religious bigots but they cannot discriminate because of it."

They are two very different things.

What you said would be like saying... "No they can still be religious bigots but they cannot go to church or read the bible anymore".

Acting on a religion (as it were) is very different from discriminating against someone because they do something that does not conform to that religion.

Author:  jonlumb [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bristol gay couple win Cornwall B&B bed ban case

That makes more sense, sorry, being a bit slow on the uptake.

Author:  Amnesia10 [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bristol gay couple win Cornwall B&B bed ban case

Fogmeister wrote:
Acting on a religion (as it were) is very different from discriminating against someone because they do something that does not conform to that religion.

I would add what about "turn the other cheek" attitude espoused by the church?

Author:  rustybucket [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bristol gay couple win Cornwall B&B bed ban case

Amnesia10 wrote:
I would add what about "turn the other cheek" attitude espoused by the church?

"Turn the other cheek" is a call to non-violent civil disobedience against an occupying military dictatorship and a privileged religious elite.

I'm not sure how it's relevant in this case. :?

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