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NHS among most efficient health systems http://www.x404.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=14416 |
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Author: | cloaked_wolf [ Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:32 pm ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | NHS among most efficient health systems | |||||||||
clicky
Which is what almost all doctors already know. Pity no-one listens to us and the BMA is a waste of space. |
Author: | adidan [ Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: NHS among most efficient health systems |
We also spend a modest proportion of our GDP on our Health Service and it's damned good value. The US spend more of their GDP on healthcare but most of it currently goes to the Insurance companies. Keep competition out of it, it's a service we pay for, we require the same service across the board. I don't want to have to pick my hospital or GP on a 'comparethemarket' website when I've severed a limb. Lansley is an ass. More privatisation does not save money, it increases costs and decreases the service (if you take the US as a working example). All it does is make private firms lots of money. |
Author: | Amnesia10 [ Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:03 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: NHS among most efficient health systems |
The coalitions plans for the NHS are purely ideological. Maybe they own shares in the private health providers or have political contributions from them, and are required to screw up the system for the rest of us. While I will accept that there are small things that could be done better the plans of the coalition will not improve the service overall. |
Author: | rustybucket [ Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: NHS among most efficient health systems |
Although I agree with the premise of the article... ... the RSM isn't without ideological bias either. |
Author: | ShockWaffle [ Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:59 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: NHS among most efficient health systems |
I expect to see politicians infer more than their data implies to promote a political vision, but I really hate to see scientist getting on that bandwagon, it debases the profession and makes them look like morons. If we spend less money per head than the other countries in the survey, and achieve greater life savings per pound spent, that doesn't prove that the NHS is more efficient. It could just as well show that other countries are spending more cash on stuff other than saving lives. This study's crass looking methodology could even be obscuring massive inefficiency; if the number of lives saved in Germany is roughly equivalent to the NHS, and they spend an extra 1% of GDP, they might be spending 2% of GDP on something the NHS doesn't do like care for the elderly. It is also absurd to look at the example of America and say that this shows that competition gets you pretty dismal results. Any idiot can tell you that it only shows that competition doesn't guarantee good results. Nobody has any plan to tear down the NHS and replace it with a fiasco like they have in America, so why is this statistical outlier being used as an example? The private sector hospitals that the NHS needs to be either copying or importing are not in America, they are in India. Perhaps the problem here is that the story has been written up by a social affairs editor. I imagine a health care or science editor would have insisted on a little more rigour. |
Author: | cloaked_wolf [ Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:57 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: NHS among most efficient health systems |
^^^ I agree - the comparison is always with America, as though other health systems don't exist. You need to look at where that money is being spent. Saving lives isa moot point if all that happens is that you have a poor quality of life. I will try and read the paper and stick my critical appraisal hat on at some point this week. |
Author: | JJW009 [ Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: NHS among most efficient health systems |
It's not easy to do a cost-benefit analysis on the value of life. I personally hold the "free at the point of delivery" model of the NHS as absolutely sacrosanct. Do I believe the NHS is efficiently run? Do I 'eck as like. |
Author: | Amnesia10 [ Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:49 am ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: NHS among most efficient health systems | |||||||||
I do think that allowing private sector companies to come and cherry pick the services that are most profitable will completely destroy the effectiveness of the NHS as a whole. Without many routine procedures the cost of A&E will rise steeply, and will force them to be closed. |
Author: | ShockWaffle [ Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: NHS among most efficient health systems |
That sounds a bit silly imo. If the private sector can take over a big pile of boring simple work and provide a more efficient process, and make a profit margin, and bring costs down, without having to fiddle the numbers to make the NHS look more expensive than it is, and without putting lives at risk, then it should be done. If they can't honestly meet every one of those requirements, then there is no need for them. Everything else is partisan [LIFTED]. I'm bored of reading that it must be wrong because it is all part of a tory plot to [LIFTED] the universe in the arse. And I'm getting fed up of reading that it must be right because the private sector is always more efficient than the public. There shouldn't be a misleading pile of lies in place of reasoned argument about this subject... it's important enough that we should know the facts. There must be some sensible and honest people somewhere that can be relied on to work it out based on factual evidence, why can't we find these people and ask them? Why do so few people even want to? Am I the only person left who wants to see proper truthful evidence before making his mind up? The size and distribution of A&E units should not be decided by politicians or accountants, there are rules about how far away you can be from an A&E already, so there's a limit to how many can be shut, which is decided by how fast an ambulance can get you to a life saving operating theatre. And there are good medical reasons why a lot of smaller A&Es should be shut down. Many of the problems the NHS has seem to stem from political interference, with the local MP always demanding that their hospital should maintain services that it is not best suited for. |
Author: | jonbwfc [ Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:04 pm ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: NHS among most efficient health systems | |||||||||
To paraphrase an old IT saying 'You can have it better, you can have it quicker, you can have it cheaper. Pick any two from three.' Jon |
Author: | cloaked_wolf [ Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: NHS among most efficient health systems |
To cut down on ambulance response times, quite often a "first responder" is sent out. This means they can meet the targets. The perceived problem of allowing part-privitisation is that the NHS is lumbered with the inefficient bits after the private companies have had their bite of the cherry. Which means it'd drop down in efficiency ratings. Then there are concerns over the cost and who pays who what. |
Author: | adidan [ Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:35 pm ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: NHS among most efficient health systems | |||||||||
They can help with that by removing frakkin speed bumps. I remember reading one article in some paramedic magazine years ago (no idea how I ended up reading it) reportedly arguing that they caused more deaths and injury than they save because they slow down emergency vehicles and cause delicate patients to get bashed about in the back. |
Author: | ShockWaffle [ Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:43 pm ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: NHS among most efficient health systems | |||||||||
That might hold true for other part privatised public services like the Post Office (good bits sold to TNT, crap bits to be left to slowly wither), but I don't see how it can happen to the NHS. People place a certain level of importance in small things like their children not dying that a daily postcard delivery service can't match. This cross-subsidy argument is a canard designed to play the hidden inflated costs game in reverse. If there are activities which can be done better by private providers, then that saves money that can be reinvested into the other bits. It never makes economic sense to squander resources. |
Author: | adidan [ Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:45 pm ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: NHS among most efficient health systems | |||||||||
That's working on the assumption that the private sector actually saves money while providing the same/better service. It certainly hasn't worked with the care homes. |
Author: | ShockWaffle [ Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: NHS among most efficient health systems |
But there are excellent private hospitals in India, why? Because they had a need to do this sort of thing on a budget and they came up with a solution. If one country with rampant bureaucratic gridlock can come up with this solution, why can't another? |
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