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Orde ridicules Cameron over US 'Supercop'
http://www.x404.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=14465		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  pcernie [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:03 am ]
Post subject:  Orde ridicules Cameron over US 'Supercop'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 37445.html

Headline's theatrical, but we all know how it'll be perceived... Orde's a gobsh1te, but bar his blinkers on recent police tactics, I agree with what he's saying there.
Author:  bobbdobbs [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Orde ridicules Cameron over US 'Supercop'
Oh no, someone asks for advice from someone who may have an opinion and some first hand knowledge!!!
Author:  adidan [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Orde ridicules Cameron over US 'Supercop'
bobbdobbs wrote:
Oh no, someone asks for advice from someone who may have an opinion and some first hand knowledge!!!

Perhaps it would be better to ask our European neighbours first though.

Much of US opinion would not be applicable in the UK. For example, curfews are in place in some areas but that could never be implemented in London.
Author:  bobbdobbs [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Orde ridicules Cameron over US 'Supercop'
Quote:
"I am not sure I want to learn about gangs from an area of America that has 400 of them. It seems to me, if you've got 400 gangs, then you're not being very effective. If you look at the style of policing in the States, and their levels of violence, they are so fundamentally different from here.

Id say that would mean that he would have a lot of relevant advice, especially as the gang over here seem to ape the american style so much.



Quote:
What I suggested to the Home Secretary is a more sensible approach, maybe to look across far wider styles of policing; and, more usefully, at European styles – they, like us, are bound by the European Convention. My sense is, when we've done that, we will find the British model is probably the top.

Translated "we do not need to change what we are doing".

American culture whether good or bad is influencing the UK and the rest of Europe more and more. I would say far more than European culture is influencing the UK now. That is not to say that we shouldnt be listening to our European neighbours as well
Author:  Amnesia10 [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Orde ridicules Cameron over US 'Supercop'
The man that Cameron picked was a proponent of zero tolerance. So expect the prisons to fill very fast with trivial offences. That will stop the coalition adopting his ideas. The problem for the government is that if they give the police too many more powers they will be accused of stopping any form of protest.
Author:  bobbdobbs [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Orde ridicules Cameron over US 'Supercop'
Amnesia10 wrote:
The man that Cameron picked was a proponent of zero tolerance. So expect the prisons to fill very fast with trivial offences. That will stop the coalition adopting his ideas. The problem for the government is that if they give the police too many more powers they will be accused of stopping any form of protest.

Zero tolerance doesnt have to mean putting everyone into prison for trivial offences. Appropriate punishment for the offence committed.
Author:  jonbwfc [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orde ridicules Cameron over US 'Supercop'
Ever since the 70's the Tories have had this dogma that pretty anything American must be better than what we've got. It probably stems from the point that they brought American electioneering techniques over as part of Margaret Thatcher's first winning campaign. It is, in general, wrong.

I rather have to side with Orde on this one (and you've no idea how much it pains me to say that). The guy has no experience of British law or custom whatsoever, by what logic is he able to advice our police forces or legal counsels on what is good or bad for us? The only advise he could give that would be useful would be so general as to trivial, and could be given in a short transatlantic phone call. Plus his successes in the US were largely based on a massive increase in local police funding to allow a much more active and micromanaged policing of poor districts. In New York they instituted an extra tax to pay for it! Anyone think the police are going to get a massive increase in funding and manpower to implement whatever advice this man might give?

I assume he's not doing it for free. I also assume in typical 'management consultant' fashion, he's being paid a bloody fortune for his advice, half of which is obvious and the other half is useless.

Bloody hell Cameron, three cities get trashed and this is the best idea you can come up with?

Jon
Author:  Amnesia10 [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orde ridicules Cameron over US 'Supercop'
jonbwfc wrote:
Bloody hell Cameron, three cities get trashed and this is the best idea you can come up with?

Jon

You forgot Leeds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt7m4L9o0hU
Author:  adidan [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orde ridicules Cameron over US 'Supercop'
Amnesia10 wrote:
The man that Cameron picked was a proponent of zero tolerance. So expect the prisons to fill very fast with trivial offences.

To be fair to the man he's also stated in the past that you can't arrest your way out of such situations.
Author:  jonbwfc [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orde ridicules Cameron over US 'Supercop'
Indeed. The point of 'Zero tolerance' is not to put everyone who does anything at all in jail. Its not about draconian measures. Its about the point that if you allow all sorts of petty crime to go un-noticed, it causes all sorts of follow on social effects. In an area that is covered in graffiti and vandalised the entire community living there feels more depressed and downtrodden, which can lead to people committing more crime because they feel less included. It's also true that if the community feel the police are 'not doing their job', then they're less likely to co-operate with the police to solve whatever crime the police are still bothered about prosecuting.

So no, you don't throw everyone in jail. But everyone gets caught and everyone gets some level of punishment. crime is dissuaded and the community feels better about itself, which simply by happening further reduces the level of crime. It's a virtuous circle, effectively.

There's a section in Malcolm Gladwell's 'The Tipping Point' about the use of zero tolerance in New York, how it worked and why it worked. However it doesn't get round the fact that British and US policing is different culturally and that the UK police force can't use some of the measures they used in New York. In fact, they'd do just as well buying a copy of 'Tipping Point' for everyone in ACPO as throwing money at this guy, and it'd probably cost about a tenth as much.

Jon
Author:  Amnesia10 [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orde ridicules Cameron over US 'Supercop'
Yes but this could be used to expand the national database immensely. Imaging every 14 to 25 year old for some petty incident ending up on the DNA database. Overtime you end up with a populace frightened to do anything and expect changes to voting rights over time as the "wrong sort of people are voting" that is already happening in the US. Expect it here if the Tories can get away with it.
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