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Death to rioters
http://www.x404.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15410		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  E. F. Benson [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Death to rioters
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16265551

the potential here is staggering. I want to protect whats mine as much as the next person, but I can't say I'm keen to have the boys in blue spraying rounds in built up areas. Goldie looking Chain or what.
Author:  jonbwfc [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death to rioters
They can already use baton rounds or tear gas (i.e. it's within their powers to do so). What this is about is having clearly defined circumstances where such things would be deployed. It's not about doing or not doing, it's about creating an S.O.P. for response to rioting. The problem in the summer was partly because you had different forces all saying to each other 'can we break this stuff out? Should we break this stuff out? Is it considered legally acceptable to use it yet?' and nobody actually knew. Part of the reason things got so out of control was that the police command structure couldn't make it's mind up exactly how to respond. If you define an S.O.P. everyone knows what to do when x, y or z occur, so the response is much quicker.

Of course the downside is the other side will probably know the S.O.P. too, so they'll know exactly how far they can go before they get a riot stick in the mush. But at least it'll stop the farce of the police standing around watching people set fire to things because their bosses can't decide what an 'appropriate response' is.

In summary : This won't change what the police can do, but it might change when the can do it.

Jon
Author:  adidan [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death to rioters
The thing is the riots could have been quashed early on if the Police hadn't stood by, several factors resulted in that farce, and there wouldn't need to be this talk of turning to Syrian tactics of crowd control.
Author:  jonbwfc [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death to rioters
adidan wrote:
T...Syrian tactics of crowd control.

Yeah, because our police are just like the Syrians :roll:
Author:  adidan [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death to rioters
jonbwfc wrote:
adidan wrote:
T...Syrian tactics of crowd control.

Yeah, because our police are just like the Syrians :roll:

Perhaps I was being a drama queen but talk of live ammunition to control rioters in a democratic population is never an idea I'm comfortable with.
Author:  bobbdobbs [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death to rioters
Just shoot the [LIFTED].
problem solved all round :twisted:
Author:  hifidelity2 [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death to rioters
bobbdobbs wrote:
Just shoot the [LIFTED].
problem solved all round :twisted:


Until they miss and a stray round goes through your window and kills you or one of your family
Author:  bobbdobbs [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death to rioters
hifidelity2 wrote:
bobbdobbs wrote:
Just shoot the [LIFTED].
problem solved all round :twisted:


Until they miss and a stray round goes through your window and kills you or one of your family

Whilst the rioters burn your property whilst your in it burning you and your family to death.
Author:  adidan [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death to rioters
bobbdobbs wrote:
Whilst the rioters burn your property whilst your in it burning you and your family to death.

Whilst there's a mistake made and your family is shot by accident...

FFS, anybody with any sense knows that we already have the capabilities of quelling riots through preventative and tactical measures - they just have to be employed at the right time in the right fashion.

That is the recommendation by the way. Can anyone name any instance where, in the long term, plastic or live ammunition has actually worked?

Don't be rash when you condemn people to death, even the wisest cannot see every eventuality.
Author:  jonbwfc [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death to rioters
bobbdobbs wrote:
hifidelity2 wrote:
Until they miss and a stray round goes through your window and kills you or one of your family

Whilst the rioters burn your property whilst your in it burning you and your family to death.

To be fair, you'd have to say you were just really, really unlucky that day.

Jon
Author:  l3v1ck [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death to rioters
I don't have a problem with this. Most rioters were the usual criminal scum anyway, the "usual suspects" as it were.
Author:  adidan [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death to rioters
Quote:
Official figures show that 13% of those arrested in the riots have been identified as gang members, rising to 19% in London. But even where police identified gang members being present, most forces believe they did not play a pivotal role.
clicky

Quote:
The official statistics, released on Thursday, back up claims by the justice secretary, Kenneth Clarke, that a "hardcore of the criminal classes" were involved in the riots, with 73% of those put before the courts having previous criminal convictions – and one third of that number having served a prison sentence before.
clicky

So yes, a majority had previous convictions. I think that highlights that changes need to be made to the Justice System rather than Policing. Reforming people who have been convicted of crimes is not working.
Author:  Linux_User [ Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death to rioters
Yeah, just what we need, giving the Police carte blanche to shoot people; that worked out really well for Jean Charles de Menezes.

I don't trust the plebs in the Metrpolitan Police with guns, they will shoot innocent people.
Author:  MrStevenRogers [ Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death to rioters
i predict that within 10 years (or less) you will have a form of marshal law in this country ...

reason
they, the authorities, lost control of the public areas at the last riots, properly more riots to follow
also outside this country events that are happening will cause long lasting after affects

and the biggest 'maybe' is food imports ? ...
rest assured things are going to get much worse with strikes (for whatsoever reason), protests and more riots leading to emergency law enforcement ...
Author:  jonbwfc [ Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death to rioters
Linux_User wrote:
Yeah, just what we need, giving the Police carte blanche to shoot people; that worked out really well for Jean Charles de Menezes.
I don't trust the plebs in the Metrpolitan Police with guns, they will shoot innocent people.

Well that's kind of my point. We're not talking here about letting the police do anything 'new'. They can already use aggressive measures like baton rounds and water cannons if they want to. They can even shoot people and justify it later, or at least try to. What this report is doing is simply putting down hard rules about what they should do or what it is acceptable for them to do, given a particular set of circumstances. Personally, I think the whole 'shooting arsonists' thing is very shaky and it'd be a foolhardy copper who even considered it but running round claiming it's one step from a police state is bunk. It hasn't changed the powers the police have over us one jot. If the report's suggestions will make us into a police state, then we already are one.

Jon
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