http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20383673
Plus, you know, Danish bacon
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| MoD defends using shot pigs in military training http://www.x404.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=17668 |
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| Author: | pcernie [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | MoD defends using shot pigs in military training |
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20383673 Plus, you know, Danish bacon
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| Author: | Amnesia10 [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: MoD defends using shot pigs in military training |
Not necessary. Allow gangs to have guns and wait in the inner cities for the bodies to roll in. No animal rights problem at all. 
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| Author: | cloaked_wolf [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: MoD defends using shot pigs in military training |
I'd be more happy if it were members of PETA instead of pigs. |
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| Author: | Amnesia10 [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:05 pm ] | |||||||||
| Post subject: | Re: MoD defends using shot pigs in military training | |||||||||
I cannot see the need for such cruelty to use live animals anyway. Army medics get enough experience if they are constantly sent into war zones to fight some illegal stupid war. |
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| Author: | jonbwfc [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: MoD defends using shot pigs in military training |
IIRC, pigs are (in bullet effect terms) about the closest animals to humans. Bone density is similar etc. You'd generally use ballistic gel to measure simple stuff like penetration but if you want to study the actual effects a bullet might have, you either have to use complex models which have different density gels for the internal organs and plastic 'bones' - a bit like the models you get in biology labs at school - or you use a pig carcass. The pig is hell of a lot cheaper. I can't say I'm happy about the pigs being alive when they're shot though. I very much doubt you'd be able to do that in the UK - it wouldn't count as being 'humane' under our animal treatment laws. Plus I don't see what's to gain in shooting a live pig as oppose to one that's already been killed by a humane method. Apart from anything else, it's harder to hit something that's still running around... |
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| Author: | jonbwfc [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:10 pm ] | ||||||||||||||||||
| Post subject: | Re: MoD defends using shot pigs in military training | ||||||||||||||||||
Don't have to go that far. The US army send their medics to do sabbaticals in the hospitals in the more shall we say 'working class' areas of their major cities. They see far more gunshot injuries there than they would in the field. Plus the majority of British wounded in current conflicts aren't bullet injuries anyway, they're blast and shrapnel injuries from IEDs. Jon |
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| Author: | JJW009 [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:30 pm ] | |||||||||
| Post subject: | Re: MoD defends using shot pigs in military training | |||||||||
"shooting and injuring pigs for Army surgeons to practice their skills on" I'm not defending it, but how can you tell if the operation was successful if the patient is already dead? The properties of the flesh start to change dramatically once circulation ceases. Additionally there's no blood loss pattern, heart activity, brain activity etc. to measure. You may as well be using a complicated piece of plastic. |
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| Author: | Amnesia10 [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:33 pm ] | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Post subject: | Re: MoD defends using shot pigs in military training | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I think that the British Army sent its medics to Belfast on sabbatical's for the same reason. Though considering putting pigs through IED's to get medics experience will turn public opinion against the army. |
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| Author: | Linux_User [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: MoD defends using shot pigs in military training |
If there are viable alternatives available then the MoD's position is indefensible. |
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| Author: | Amnesia10 [ Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:03 am ] | |||||||||
| Post subject: | Re: MoD defends using shot pigs in military training | |||||||||
There may actually be few legal options, and does blowing up pigs count as humane as they are to be alive to aid the medics recovery skills? |
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| Author: | jonbwfc [ Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:32 am ] | ||||||||||||||||||
| Post subject: | Re: MoD defends using shot pigs in military training | ||||||||||||||||||
As I say, not under UK animal welfare legislation. The only real legal option is models - effectively very detailed crash test dummies - and they really aren't much use in medical terms, merely to study the effect of various weapons/injuries. I don't really buy the 'it doesn't work if the patient dies' argument though tbh. You can examine the 'injury' on a corpse in great details and we already know how to repair pretty much any injury on a human - or at least how to mitigate the effects as much as we can. So the trainer can say to the doctor being trained 'this injury requires this operation, go and do it to my satisfaction' on a corpse and as much would be learned as doing it on a live subject. It's just the cheapest way to practice if you consider the idea of them practicing on live humans in the field unacceptable. However there's no justification for using live subjects that bears any examination. |
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| Author: | Amnesia10 [ Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: MoD defends using shot pigs in military training |
Yes models might be less problematic with the animal rights protesters. This sort of behaviour just makes soldiers legitimate targets for protesters. |
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| Author: | paulzolo [ Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | MoD defends using shot pigs in military training |
A lot of grisly animal experimentation goes on to ensure our ongoing safety and comfort. Those operations they do in hospital? At some point, those were likely to above been developed using animal experimentation - primates in particular. Those jet engines get birds fired at the to make sure that bird strikes don't cause catastrophic failure. I would also hazard an opinion that the discussed pigs would be subject to weapons and other agents which we will have no access or knowledge of. |
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| Author: | cloaked_wolf [ Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:45 am ] | |||||||||
| Post subject: | Re: MoD defends using shot pigs in military training | |||||||||
Completely disagree. Whilst you can "operate" on models and dead pigs, you cannot accurately simulate possible complications or even differences in surgery. Put it this way: you get an injury (maybe a shotgun wound to the abdomen). Who would you want operating on you? A surgeon who has only practised on plastic models, or one who has only practised on live pigs? I, for one, would certainly opt for the latter. Models can only come so far in terms of accuracy and variability. During my medical training in anatomy, we had both cadavers and plastic models. The former certainly provided more insight than any plastic or computer models. It's not just where things are but the consistency, texture etc that doesn't get replicated in any other way. The ideal would be to practise on humans but the problem is that there's a high probability of them dying. |
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| Author: | jonbwfc [ Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:11 am ] | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Post subject: | Re: MoD defends using shot pigs in military training | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
But you can't do that anyway. You can never account for all the circumstances that may come up in the field during training, in any profession. The best you can do is give someone the confidence to use their training to improvise successfully when complications they haven't seen before come up. There's an argument you can only get that confidence via experience for which 'live' subjects would help but it's not one that's irrefutable. The major requirements are detailed knowledge and an ability to avoid panicing.
The correct answer is 'at that point I'll take whatever I can get'. The obvious question to ask is, is there any empirical evidence to suggest that this form of training improves the chances of our soldiers surviving a battlefield injury? Or is it one of those things that 'makes sense' to someone with pips on their shoulder?
But you never practiced on live pigs did you? Do you feel your training was inadequate because of the fact?
if you're an army surgeon in the field, you're pretty sure any patient you're working on is going to die or be significantly maimed unless you do something about it (standard battlefield triage rules apply). In that case, anything you can do is probably a better option. When it comes down to it, there will be a moment when each army surgeon is faced with his first dying squaddie on a table whome he's the only person in a position to save. Is operating on animals where nothing is at stake really good preparation for that? I'm not adverse to the idea of using animals as training material per se, I just find the idea of specifically wounding animals for training purposes.. well I have issues with it. As I say, they wouldn't be allowed to do it on UK soil. The argument that it's something that will increase the chances of one of our soldiers surviving versus the notion that if we have to do something we find reprehensible to do it then the cost is too high isn't one that has a trite answer. |
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