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A relatively sensible article [NHS] http://www.x404.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=19669 |
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Author: | cloaked_wolf [ Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:02 pm ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | A relatively sensible article [NHS] | |||||||||
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Author: | ProfessorF [ Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: A relatively sensible article [NHS] |
Where's koli to tell us that everything needs to be privately run? |
Author: | ShockWaffle [ Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:07 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: A relatively sensible article [NHS] |
It's relatively sensible in the less ambitious parts where he deals with basics of management. His approach to the market question seems faulty though, he seems to view the NHS as a single monolithic organisation. The competing viewpoint at least recognises the difference between insurance and provision, as well as that between multiple providers (and more importantly, not multiple insurers). His description of the funding and rationing issues is too glib. And, disappointingly, he implies that the only reason for the public to pay for anything is because otherwise some people will be too poor to have that thing at all. Fine, that's one important reason, but it is also public good when the government is in a position to pay for it more effectively than the individual. The NHS is the world's best example of both in one. To see what I mean, you just need to look at two images. First up, this is UK spending on healthcare as proportion of GDP ![]() And here's one which shows the same headline for all OECD nations as of 2008 ![]() You'll note that we're kind of in the middle with what we already spend, and that whether the overall economy is in growth or decline, healthcare costs seem to grow faster if permitted to. You might also note that the only rich nation on the list that doesn't have comprehensive universal health insurance is way out in front of all the others in terms of what it spends overall - and you might be aware that they don't have better health outcomes than us on the whole. What you may not be aware of, is that this second chart obscures the fact that the USA spends almost as great a proportion of GDP on it's inadequate equivalents to the NHS (Medicare, Medicaid, and health insurance tax rebates) as we do - or it might be more when the rebates are included, I can never remember. This is because of the second thing I said: Public spending on health is money that is (in a general sense, and subject to some caveats) better spent than the same amount of money spent by the individual. I also see two major problems with his waiting times thing. Firstly, he says that people are only able to judge the quality of their care by time it took to get seen. I think we could find people on this forum who would judge treatment they have received on much more important factors than that - does that make us a collection of wonder-patients, or does it make that man's claim silly? And attempts have been made to provide patients with more information about health outcomes per doctor / hospital and so on, but the medical profession seems to resent (with some cause) this openness agenda. If waiting times are the only data that can be compared, then people don't have much else to go on. The other problem of course is that it makes no sense to see waiting lists as a means of rationing. If the wait for a specific procedure is growing and continues to grow until it becomes unacceptable - that is a failure of rationing, not a method. If wait times are long but static then that is a method of delaying, not rationing. Only in cases where wait times lead patients to either lose interest, find alternative treatments, or die untreated, would they count as an actual tool of rationing. FWIW, can anybody tell me which of those countries in the OECD chart have better health care than us (overall, or on value for money basis, I don't care), and then maybe which countries out of that list use private companies to supply portions of that care? |
Author: | ShockWaffle [ Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:08 pm ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: A relatively sensible article [NHS] | |||||||||
When did you become such a troll? |
Author: | cloaked_wolf [ Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: A relatively sensible article [NHS] |
Rationing IMO is acceptable to a point. You have a cough/cold for <6 hours. It's acceptable to wait a couple of days to be seen if it's not an emergency. It's not acceptable IMO to wait three weeks to see your doctor. The problem from my POV is the "me, me, me" attitude of the current population. I've found those most likely to complain are the postwar baby boomers who are in their 60s-70s. Those over this age will wait with patience and value their experience. It's compounded by the Govt attitude that you can be seen at the drop of a hat and essentially promising a Rolls Royce service on a Ford Fiesta budget. I do feel there are some things in the NHS that are unacceptable like poor standards of basic care and attention. In my experience, the best wards to work on were the ones that were properly staffed with regular staff. The worst ones were the wards with lots of agency nurses who would scarper the moment they called you, leaving you to track down the notes and the patient, and then try and track down any equipment you needed. The best experience I had was on my first set of nights where the experienced nurse called me to see a poorly patient and had already brought out the equipment I might need by the time I arrived (<3 mins). She knew everything about the patient and made my life much easier so I could concentrate on dealing with the patient rather than wasting time. Unfortunately, her ilk have pretty much retired now. |
Author: | ProfessorF [ Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:58 pm ] | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Post subject: | Re: A relatively sensible article [NHS] | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I suspect the issues with the NHS are a product of societal expectations which have bred the current political approach to dealing with it. My mother was a nurse, my sister's a senior consultant in paediatric endocrinology. She's lectured around the world on the topic. From both of their perspectives, staffing levels are the sticking point. Coupled with an institutional approach that the NHS should be run as a business, not a service, you find staff first and foremost thinking about what they get out of the NHS rather than what they can offer in terms of patient care. In my sisters case, they've laid off 2 other consultants in her department, which means she's now taking on the work they'd have dealt with, which necessarily means the time spent per patient is cut by 2/3rds, but the results expected are the same. The result being that time spent with a patient is a bit like the tip of the iceberg; there's a lot going on under the surface. So while she's ethically and morally obligated to provide the best care possible, she's being hobbled by a system that should be there to support her.
Not trolling, just an expectation. |
Author: | Amnesia10 [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:02 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: A relatively sensible article [NHS] |
I do think that waiting according to priority is an acceptable form of rationing. End waiting time targets is less important than beds in trolleys. Like most people we only want decent services locally, we do not need choice. It is a strategy design to dismantle the NHS. If you want to jump the queue go private. Also MP's should be disqualified from using private services, they cannot comment on something that they do not use if all they use is private health services. |
Author: | jonbwfc [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:33 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: A relatively sensible article [NHS] |
It's a classic example of government doublethink (and not this government, I'm not being partisan) that they spent the last few years banging on about 'giving people a choice', then embarked on a massive programme of centralisation of things like A&E and pediatrics so there is effectively no choice at all, because there's only one source of service within reasonable travelling distance. The NHS has been monumentally screwed up by successive governments (and health ministers, specifically) who were utterly unqualified to make any important decision about it. The problem is with our democratic system : we elect people who are good at getting elected and then expect them to do something completely unrelated that's really important for which they have shown no aptitude whatsoever. If we elected people based on suitability for the act of government, none of the people we see on TV would get within a hundred miles of Parliament. I'm reminded of a scene from The West Wing. There's a labour dispute that has gone on for ages and caused economic damage to the US, and President Bartlett has finally been forced to drag both sides to The White House and sort out a solution. As the scene opens, both sides are sat at the conference table, glowering at each other. Bartlett walks up to his chair (and being President they all stand up as he enters), surveys both sides and says "Hands up everyone in the room who has a nobel prize for economics." (Bartlett alone puts his hand up). "OK, then sit down and listen." Can you imagine the UK ever having a nobel laureate for a chancellor or science minister? Or a famed surgeon for a health minister? Just wouldn't ever happen.... |
Author: | Amnesia10 [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:02 am ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: A relatively sensible article [NHS] | |||||||||
Agreed it is all the main parties that are responsible. Though Labour did become a wing of the Tory Party as they moved to the right. Though with so many politicians who have vested interests in private health there are also large problems with conflicts of interest and corruption. |
Author: | cloaked_wolf [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:31 am ] | ||||||||||||||||||
Post subject: | Re: A relatively sensible article [NHS] | ||||||||||||||||||
A prime example of this is "Choose & Book". In the olden days, you wrote to a consultant (or perhaps department) to see a patient. An admindroid would book the patient in and send a letter out to the patient. If it didn't suit, the patient could ring up and try an alternative date/time. Now there's choose and book. Instead of the patient getting a date and time, they have to ring up for one. They can "choose" to go to abc hospital and seen relatively quickly (which is where they would have been referred) or they can "choose" to go to xyz hospital which is 50 miles away and has a longer waiting time. The patient then has to struggle through the telephone system with a username and password and try to get an appointment. Anecdotally, this system is far worse than the original and people struggle to get in despite it being about "more choice". The majority of people don't want "choice". They just want to be seen at a nearby hospital in a timely manner. We currently use the old system but are being forced to go down the new system.
Well guess what Jeremy Hunt* was before he became Secretary of Health? "Shadow Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport". Hmm... *we in the medical profession call him something else. Begins with a C and rhymes with "Hunt". |
Author: | Amnesia10 [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:45 am ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: A relatively sensible article [NHS] | |||||||||
You are not the only ones |
Author: | bobbdobbs [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:16 am ] | ||||||||||||||||||
Post subject: | Re: A relatively sensible article [NHS] | ||||||||||||||||||
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4 |
Author: | ShockWaffle [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: A relatively sensible article [NHS] |
Sounds like a bad call management system, not a fundamentally unworkable model. |
Author: | Amnesia10 [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:39 pm ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: A relatively sensible article [NHS] | |||||||||
I would probably say that they do not. With certain rarer treatments I think that people would rather go to a better hospital for a better treatment. There have been specialised hospitals in the NHS for years. Heart transplants could be a good example of preferring a better hospital much further away. You would rather a positive out come rather than a chance of getting through at the local hospital. Basic treatments should be decent everywhere. Specialisations in tropical diseases really only need a single hospital that specialises. Heart transplants could be covered by a decent regional hospital. Heart surgery by more hospitals. |
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