x404.co.uk
http://www.x404.co.uk/forum/

William Hague rejects Tory MPs' demand for EU veto
http://www.x404.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=21020
Page 1 of 2

Author:  pcernie [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:  William Hague rejects Tory MPs' demand for EU veto

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ps-eu-veto

Author:  Amnesia10 [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: William Hague rejects Tory MPs' demand for EU veto

There are a lot of frightened Tory MP's. They fear will either lose seats to Labour or UKIP. This could be simply be pandering to their rabid base.

Author:  jonbwfc [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: William Hague rejects Tory MPs' demand for EU veto

Amnesia10 wrote:
This could be simply be pandering to their rabid base.

While I don't agree with this line of policy and would never vote tory, this criticism does amuse me. What exactly is it that's unacceptable about a political party 'pandering' to the people who vote for it? Isn't that actually the fundamental principle of party democracy? Wouldn't we equally be pointing the finger and calling them 'remote' and even 'undemocratic' if they weren't doing what the people who vote for them wanted them to do?

If tory part voters want the tory party to use their phalanx of MPs to push a particular policy through the house, that's exactly what they should do. You may vehemently disagree with the policy, but to decry the very fact it might happen is anti-democratic of itself.

Author:  Amnesia10 [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: William Hague rejects Tory MPs' demand for EU veto

jonbwfc wrote:
Amnesia10 wrote:
This could be simply be pandering to their rabid base.

While I don't agree with this line of policy and would never vote tory, this criticism does amuse me. What exactly is it that's unacceptable about a political party 'pandering' to the people who vote for it? Isn't that actually the fundamental principle of party democracy? Wouldn't we equally be pointing the finger and calling them 'remote' and even 'undemocratic' if they weren't doing what the people who vote for them wanted them to do?

If tory part voters want the tory party to use their phalanx of MPs to push a particular policy through the house, that's exactly what they should do. You may vehemently disagree with the policy, but to decry the very fact it might happen is anti-democratic of itself.

Actually most Tories are perfectly fine. My aunt was the Chair of the local parliamentary constituency. There are a very small minority that you could call very vocal about this matter. No more than any other large group.

As for pandering it would be the same for New Labour pandering to billionaires and ignoring most of their base. The Tories are doing the same. At the last election the votes of the vast majority of us were ignored. Both main parties only targeted the 40 000 in some key constituencies, the rest of us were in the bag or votes were useless being in a safe seat. My ward is so safe that there were no election leaflets locally until the constituency looked too close to call and they needed every vote out.

What they are going are trying loads of different messages each aimed at a small segment of the electorate. Each party is hoping that you remember that they said this or that in the election and vote for them over the rest. The Tories are also concerned that they will lose many voters to UKIP. UKIP have countered in that they are targeting Labour safe seats in the north in order to appeal to disaffected Labour supporters of which there are a few. Hague is right on this matter.

Author:  jonbwfc [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: William Hague rejects Tory MPs' demand for EU veto

Amnesia10 wrote:
Each party is hoping that you remember that they said this or that in the election and vote for them over the rest.

Unfortunately for them, I plan to remember what they said they'd do before the last election, and then what they actually did.

Author:  big_D [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: William Hague rejects Tory MPs' demand for EU veto

pcernie wrote:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jan/12/william-hague-tory-mps-eu-veto

Hague actually making sense? That must be a first.

The way to veto EU law is to leave the EU. The UK government signed up to follow EU decisions for a reason. He actually makes the case why the UK (or any other country) can't just veto the EU. Either you want the benefits the EU brings with it, or you leave. The problem is, the UK has never really joined the EU and has pretty much ignored any benefits in order to make the EU look bad.

Author:  l3v1ck [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: William Hague rejects Tory MPs' demand for EU veto

jonbwfc wrote:
Amnesia10 wrote:
Each party is hoping that you remember that they said this or that in the election and vote for them over the rest.

Unfortunately for them, I plan to remember what they said they'd do before the last election, and then what they actually did.

Unfortunately for Labour I plan to remember the state they left the country's finances in before the last election.

Author:  hifidelity2 [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: William Hague rejects Tory MPs' demand for EU veto

big_D wrote:
pcernie wrote:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jan/12/william-hague-tory-mps-eu-veto

Hague actually making sense? That must be a first.

The way to veto EU law is to leave the EU. The UK government signed up to follow EU decisions for a reason. He actually makes the case why the UK (or any other country) can't just veto the EU. Either you want the benefits the EU brings with it, or you leave. The problem is, the UK has never really joined the EU and has pretty much ignored any benefits in order to make the EU look bad.

The other way is to “Play the game” and not enforce many of the what is considered petty regulations

For example you could set up a special “Enforcement of EU Regs” department and have it the sole enforcer of any regs you don’t like (so take it away from the police / councils etc)

Then just don’t fund it so there is only 1 guy based in the Outer Hebradies with no travel budget and hay presto none of the silly rules get enforced which means business will ignore them

We are however silly enough to actually enforce them where as much of Europe just ignore them

Author:  Spreadie [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: William Hague rejects Tory MPs' demand for EU veto

jonbwfc wrote:
Unfortunately for them, I plan to remember what they said they'd do before the last election, and then what they actually did.

If they agreed to make election manifestos legal and binding, it'd go a long way to restore some faith in our political system. I haven't a clue who will get my vote at the next election. Labour look hapless and inept, the LibDems ARE hapless and inept, and the Tories are content to make me pay whilst giving tax breaks to big business and the rich. UKIP and the others seems like a wasted vote.

l3v1ck wrote:
Unfortunately for Labour I plan to remember the state they left the country's finances in before the last election.

I find it laughable that you think the Tories (or anyone else) would have done anything different in the same position.

Author:  l3v1ck [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: William Hague rejects Tory MPs' demand for EU veto

With the Tories aversion to spending, I think they would have borrowed less when the economy was doing well, that would have allowed more room for manouver to borrow when the crisis hit (I don't believe any party would have had the foresight or the balls to tame the banks before the crisis happened).
Labour's inability to balance a budget, even in prosperous times, has left us with serious issues. The cuts may not have had to be quite as deep (though they would still be deep) as they have been.
The scale of the national debt is a result of Labour claiming they'd banished 'boom and bust' forever, while all the time spending money they didn't have to set us up for the biggest bust ever. Sure it wins votes as people like money being spent on services. But someone's got to pay for it. The next generation are being saddled with debt because Labour wanted to have their cake and eat it.

Author:  Spreadie [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: William Hague rejects Tory MPs' demand for EU veto

l3v1ck wrote:
With the Tories aversion to spending, I think they would have borrowed less when the economy was doing well, that would have allowed more room for manouver to borrow when the crisis hit (I don't believe any party would have had the foresight or the balls to tame the banks before the crisis happened).
Labour's inability to balance a budget, even in prosperous times, has left us with serious issues. The cuts may not have had to be quite as deep (though they would still be deep) as they have been.
The scale of the national debt is a result of Labour claiming they'd banished 'boom and bust' forever, while all the time spending money they didn't have to set us up for the biggest bust ever. Sure it wins votes as people like money being spent on services. But someone's got to pay for it. The next generation are being saddled with debt because Labour wanted to have their cake and eat it.

Still flogging that same dead horse then.

The Tories left around a 4% deficit for labour when they left power, and Labour kept the deficit lower than that, including a 2% deficit immediately before the banking crash. Even the IMF (back in 2011) attributed the large increase in UK government debt to the loss of output caused by the crash. Or are you suggesting that the UK Labour government caused the worldwide financial meltdown?

Author:  l3v1ck [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: William Hague rejects Tory MPs' demand for EU veto

As I recall Labour stuck to the Tories spending plans for the first couple of years to hold back spending. What's their excuse for that decade that followed?
In the mid early to mid 2000's the economy was doing well, yet still they couldn't balance the books. Sure it was only 2%, but when the economy is that healthy, there shouldn't be a deficit at all. The general rule is governments' borrow during hard times and pay it back when the economy is doing well. They just borrowed and borrowed and borrowed because it was popular. In otherwords, they mismanaged teh countires finances.

Author:  jonbwfc [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: William Hague rejects Tory MPs' demand for EU veto

l3v1ck wrote:
The general rule is governments' borrow during hard times and pay it back when the economy is doing well.

They really don't. They tell us that to appear like they know what they're doing, but in fact they all spend every penny they can get their hands on and more. See the infographic here. We've only been in surplus for about five years out of the last 40. And more of those years were under a labour chancellor than a tory one. The pattern of both is actually broadly similar until the 2009 crash which was under labour, but pretty coincidentally so - it would have happened just as inevitably under a tory administration.

There really isn't a whole lot of difference between the modern tory party and the modern labour party in economics terms.

Author:  Amnesia10 [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: William Hague rejects Tory MPs' demand for EU veto

l3v1ck wrote:
jonbwfc wrote:
Amnesia10 wrote:
Each party is hoping that you remember that they said this or that in the election and vote for them over the rest.

Unfortunately for them, I plan to remember what they said they'd do before the last election, and then what they actually did.

Unfortunately for Labour I plan to remember the state they left the country's finances in before the last election.

The Tories would have probably been just the same. They had pledged to maintain the spending policy of labour right until the financial crisis erupted.

Author:  l3v1ck [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: William Hague rejects Tory MPs' demand for EU veto

What they pledge and what they actually do are two different things. I've never yet met a politician who stuck to their pledges.

Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
https://www.phpbb.com/