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GPs offered 'new deal' if they agree seven-day opening
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cloaked_wolf
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm Posts: 10022
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GPs offered 'new deal' if they agree seven-day opening http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-33191120 |  |  |  | Quote: The government is promising a "new deal" for GPs in England - if they sign up to seven-day opening. In a speech on Friday, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt will promise extra investment and help for under-pressure services. The package includes plans to recruit 5,000 new GPs and another 5,000 support staff, including practice nurses. Financial incentives may even be offered to those willing to work in the most deprived areas.
Those who have left the profession or want to work part-time will be given more help, Mr Hunt will promise. But he will say that in return, GPs need to get on board with his plans for weekend opening, which involves groups of practices pooling together to share the extended hours. It builds on plans set out at the start of this year for NHS England to make the profession more attractive as the NHS is struggling to recruit new doctors.
More than one in 10 GP training places remained vacant last year. A survey of more than 15,000 GPs by the British Medical Association before the general election in May suggested a third were considering retiring in the next five years and one in 10 was thinking about moving abroad. Mr Hunt will urge GPs to work with him. "I want to be upfront: this is not about change I can deliver on my own," he will say.
"If we are to have a new deal, I will need your co-operation and support. Within five years, we will need to look after a million more over-70s. Put simply, if we do not find better, smarter ways to help our growing elderly population remain healthy and independent, our hospitals will be overwhelmed."
Dr Chaand Nagpaul, of the British Medical Association, said GPs were "ready to work with the government". But he warned seven-day services may not be the right idea to push forward with. "Pilots of seven-day routine working are increasingly demonstrating a low uptake of routine weekend appointments," he said. "Therefore, to make the most of the limited GP workforce and precious NHS resource, the government should focus on supporting practices during the day and further develop the current 24/7 urgent GP service so that patients can be confident of getting access to a quality GP service day and night." |  |  |  |  |
_________________ He fights for the users.
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Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:25 am |
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rustybucket
I haven't seen my friends in so long
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:10 pm Posts: 5836
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Hmm...
... I can see what he's getting at but I'm not sure whether I agree or not.
One thought I did have is that making the mid-week service 8am-11pm might make more sense. The reason I find myself thinking this is that it makes sense to me to structure GP access in such a way that it makes early intervention easier and more likely. I know for my part that I won't take time off work to go to the doctor unless something is wrong. If I could go to the doctor when I got home from work, I'd be less likely to leave it until it became an emergency.
It just seems to me that we've got to move our entire health culture (not just the NHS) away from short-term emergency treatment and towards well-being and whole-life care - emergencies tend to be a load more expensive. The trouble is how do you do that without harming the lives of doctors?
Need to think about this one.
_________________Jim
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Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:05 am |
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TheFrenchun
Officially Mrs saspro
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:55 pm Posts: 4955 Location: on the naughty step
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I think: Separate the care of old age related illnesses from the general healthcare system and bring back old people community centres (maybe the care staff could be located in those rather than practices?) and community support staff.
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Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:02 am |
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cloaked_wolf
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm Posts: 10022
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Big problems with this and Hunt (he is referred to as the C word amongst medics) is pushing through his own agenda without thinking about how/whether it's feasible. Perhaps to show that he's done what he can and then lay blame on GPs. After all, he's got a job within a private health company after his current role. 5,000 GPs isn't enough. Over the next five years, we're gonna need something like 10,000 just to keep current numbers. Even with the current workforce, GP surgeries are struggling. There are low demands for weekend appointments. Areas where pilot schemes for weekend opening hours had to stop offering them because of poor uptake. People don't want to go to the surgery on their days off. They want to be out and about at the weekend. Which shows that years of slagging off GPs (esp Daily Mail), increasing red tape, dumping secondary care work on GPs, falling incomes, increased outgoings including pension and indemnity, reduced pension schemes have all resulted in deterring trainees from entering GP. Given that you Mr Hunt have been slagging off GPs, creating more work and red tape, why should we support you? Hospitals are already overwhelmed and those living longer are living with more comorbidities, not fewer.
_________________ He fights for the users.
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Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:40 am |
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cloaked_wolf
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm Posts: 10022
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I had typed my earlier reply about 0830 but it hadn't posted Your employer should allow you to take reasonable time off for attending the doctors. The Tories don't like this - they want you working constantly. On the other hand, extended hours has shown access isn't always required. On top of this, the cost of running the surgery for longer isn't reimbursed in any way. A supermarket open for longer can generate more profit. A surgery open for longer will have more overheads but no increase in income to pay for it. It's not just about livelihood. There's a lot more to it. The demand isn't there in most parts of the country. London is about the only place where it's really needed. But despite London not being representative of the country, what happens there still determines what happens elsewhere. In our surgery, we have emergency walk-in available between the last appointment (1730) and when we close (1830). I'm on duty for one day a week and throughout a typical year, I might see five people who have walked in asking for an urgent review. Yet at another surgery I worked (largely commuter), we were seeing around 30 patients a day in the same time frame. Where are you going to get the money from? Biggest problem. Most elderly people want to live in their own homes. They don't want to go into residential care or nursing care, where it might be more cost effective.
_________________ He fights for the users.
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Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:57 am |
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TheFrenchun
Officially Mrs saspro
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:55 pm Posts: 4955 Location: on the naughty step
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 |  |  |  | cloaked_wolf wrote: I had typed my earlier reply about 0830 but it hadn't posted Your employer should allow you to take reasonable time off for attending the doctors. The Tories don't like this - they want you working constantly. On the other hand, extended hours has shown access isn't always required. On top of this, the cost of running the surgery for longer isn't reimbursed in any way. A supermarket open for longer can generate more profit. A surgery open for longer will have more overheads but no increase in income to pay for it. It's not just about livelihood. There's a lot more to it. The demand isn't there in most parts of the country. London is about the only place where it's really needed. But despite London not being representative of the country, what happens there still determines what happens elsewhere. In our surgery, we have emergency walk-in available between the last appointment (1730) and when we close (1830). I'm on duty for one day a week and throughout a typical year, I might see five people who have walked in asking for an urgent review. Yet at another surgery I worked (largely commuter), we were seeing around 30 patients a day in the same time frame. Where are you going to get the money from? Biggest problem. Most elderly people want to live in their own homes. They don't want to go into residential care or nursing care, where it might be more cost effective. |  |  |  |  |
I'm talking about community centres, not care homes. i don't like the idea of just going for the cheapest option or plugging holes. Surely it'd be cheaper in the long run than them being looked after by the practices?I believe a lot of older people ills are due to loneliness rather than poor health
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Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:03 am |
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rustybucket
I haven't seen my friends in so long
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:10 pm Posts: 5836
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I think, perhaps, I didn't make my point very well. I quite like my job - I mostly like my bosses and find the work fulfilling. They're great at letting me have time off. I don't go to the doctors because going to the doctor's is a disruptive pain in the arse. I work from 0700 to 1830 during the week. I leave my house at 0600 and get home at about 1915. If I could have an appointment at 2000 at the doctor, I could do a normal day's work, have a shower and then go to the doctor. Minimal disruption and a lot less stress. If I have to have an appointment in the middle of the day, it means I either have do a longer commute (because of traffic) or attempt to work from home - which for most of what I do isn't practical. Also, in a small company, anyone being off is a disruption. If I want an appointment I have to notify several people in advance and make succession provision for at least two days beforehand. If my appointment were at 0930, I wouldn't normally get into the room until after 1000. I then wouldn't actually start working until after 1130. I then can't start my own work until I'm fully up-to-speed with everything that happened in my absence - this takes an hour or so. All for a 5 minute chat about something that may or may not be a problem? No thanks. It wouldn't be so bad if I could plan it in advance but my surgery (like many others) does this utterly retarded "Start ringing after 0800 and you're only allowed an appointment today" crap. After that, the doctor then does a telephone assessment and only guarantees to see you either that day or the next. So not only can I not plan ahead and have to potentially bugger up two days but I have to explain my genital warts to a secretary, usually one with an attitude problem. That's exactly the problem, right there: it's for emergencies only and the times are useless to loads of people. That's just not true. There absolutely is demand - just not for what the surgeries provide. A lot of people want non-emergency evening appointments that can be booked in advance. If what the surgeries provide isn't that, then they shouldn't be surprised if they see no demand. I'll attempt to make my point again. It makes sense to me to structure GP access in such a way that it makes early intervention easier and more likely. If the only appointments available to me are either an emergency or a pain in the arse, I'll leave it until the problem is either an emergency or more of a pain in the arse than going to the doctor. Consequence? I likely don't turn up until it's too late. And then? That cheap GP appointment I didn't go to might just now require a trip to the operating theatre, or maybe the radiotherapy suite. And why? Because I'm an idiot. I'm scared of being told it's serious but even more afraid of being told it's nothing and I'm in the way. I need you to let me have appointments that work for me timewise and where I can bring up minor things. That way I don't turn up to hospital and cost a metric s***-tonne to deal with. I don't mean to be a prick. I just am - and I'm normal
_________________Jim
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Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:49 pm |
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cloaked_wolf
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm Posts: 10022
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Only for some is it down to loneliness. For the majority, multiple comorbidities and lack of support is a major problem. There's meant to be more "social care" going on but it's a PITA to get organised. Patients are waiting weeks just for an assessment to see what kind of help they need and even longer to get it. I believe Age UK are now doing something about tackling things like loneliness. Rusty, there isn't enough money, resources or staff for what you want, which is essentially 24/7 routine care. The entire health system was never set up for it. Even if you could get a routine GP service 24/7, you need everything else to be there - hospital specialties, pathology and imaging services, social services, district nurses etc. They all operate on a 9-5 routine service which makes it a complete pain in the backside when I've got a patient at 6pm who needs say a chest x-ray - they're not gonna get one till the next day. Just to provide 12/7 access is an increase of something like 60% workload with (so far) no increase in funding, resources or staff.
_________________ He fights for the users.
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Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:23 pm |
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ShockWaffle
Doesn't have much of a life
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:50 am Posts: 1911
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That sort of implies that flexibility, with local spending set according to local priorities and needs is a sensible approach. Or conversely that monolithic centralization with one-size-fits-a-nation contracts aren't the right approach. If so, the details may be woefully misplaced, but the politicos would appear to be blundering in roughly the right direction.
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Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:18 pm |
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rustybucket
I haven't seen my friends in so long
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:10 pm Posts: 5836
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I don't want 24/7 routine care across the board, merely a little more than 9-6 access to a GP - from 9/5 to 12/5. A lot of the other services specifically don't need to expand very much to support this because a lot of problems can wait. For instance, either someone needs a chest x-ray immediately (which is exactly what A&E is already there for) or it can genuinely wait until tomorrow, in which case changing when the referral occurs will cost nothing. As for hospital specialities and district nurses, most of us would have to wait at least a day anyway so changing when the referral occurs will cost nothing. However I do take your point about social services and similar intervention services - they really would need to be altered quite drastically. But then they already need a bit of love and attention anyway - they've been properly crapped on.
_________________Jim
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Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:26 pm |
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big_D
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:25 pm Posts: 10691 Location: Bramsche
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My GP and dentist have one evening a week where they are open to 19:00 or 20:00.
The GP generally opens between 08:00 and 12:00 and 14:30 to 17:00, although some days it only open mornings or afternoons.
To Rusty's point, Germany seems to be very much geared to preventative care in the GP surgeries.
Also, if you phone up for an appointment, you generally get one within the next 7 days. If you say it is an emergency, then they will try and fit you in towards the end of the surgery hours. If you just turn up, they must see you, but you generally have to wait until the patients with an appointment have gone through - there are exceptions and the receptionist is generally trained and can do a kind of triage to see if you need to be bumped up the list.
_________________ "Do you know what this is? Hmm? No, I can see you do not. You have that vacant look in your eyes, which says hold my head to your ear, you will hear the sea!" - Londo Molari
Executive Producer No Agenda Show 246
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Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:29 am |
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cloaked_wolf
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm Posts: 10022
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http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-zoe- ... 15548.htmlA New Deal for General Practice? No Deal Mr Hunt |  |  |  | Quote: Dear Mr Hunt,
Thank you so much for your kind speech detailing the new deal for GPs that you announced today. We have been waiting with baited breath to see what you would come up with. Well, you didn't disappoint.
You fulfilled all the expectations of vague headline filling promises - 5000 more GPs, 5000 other clinicians. I notice you sneaked Physician Assistants into that last bit with Pharmacists and Nurses, gently implying that they are a proper job with a role in the UK healthcare system. Nicely done. You kept a lid on the time-scale - clever. I'm sure we will have 5000 more GPs over the next 50 years, but it's minor detail.
You're going to market general practice to the best and brightest students. Smashing. What are you going to tell them? Is it the bit about not investing any more money in primary care? I think they'll like that. Is it the part about giving us data ("Data!!" I hear them shrieking in fevered excitement as they choose their careers), that will tell us which areas of the country are under-doctored? I'm always keen to save the Department of Health time and money - you have got to find £22 billion of efficiency savings after all. So get ready, the under-doctored areas are..... the whole country, apart from your constituency, which is why you don't seem to care about it. Job done.
So now we've attracted their attention, and I think you'll agree it's going well so far, you're going to tell them about the extra year of training they can do before they qualify are you? It's a lovely, lovely idea. Very similar to the one that the Royal College of GPs had a few years ago, but that was quietly shelved because it would slow down the number of new GPs coming through and would have made this whole recruitment crisis happen a bit earlier. Which would have looked pretty bad for the Government - which was you interestingly, wasn't it? Don't worry, rather than putting the extra year of training into general practice and killing two birds with one stone, you've put them in other areas, and delayed those doctors qualifying while in the middle of a recruitment crisis. If I was the doctor advising you - and I realise that is unlikely to happen - I'd have said: "Jeremy, it's a delightful idea. But surgeries are closing because there aren't enough doctors. You want to add an extra year onto their training, and not even in general practice! Let's put that idea on the "long term aims to wheel out at the next election" shelf, and sort out where the hell we are going to get these 5000 extra GPs you keep promising."
You want these bright new recruits to come on a journey with you. To join a partnership in providing care. Hmmm. I like the financial incentives part - a bone of realism there, although I note the wording "explore the idea of offering financial incentives" keeps it non-committal. Bearing in mind that a scheme offering £20,000 golden hellos to new recruits in Leicestershire was ended after it failed to attract more than three doctors, you do need to listen when we say it isn't about the money.
You're doing a marketing campaign too - yippee! A few posters will do the trick. You're offering flexibility for part time GPs - I think that already exists, but nice try.
I can see a bit of investment in premises, and a programme to help struggling practices. All good, all good. A couple of top tips from the coalface though. Based on personal experience, NHS England's response to struggling practices is shocking. If you could get them to stop shrugging their shoulders and muttering about contracts, then standing by while the practice goes under, that would be amazing. Or stop them doing stupid things like making mystery shopper calls to neighbouring practices when 10,000 patients have suddenly lost their GP, wasting everyone's time instead of solving the problem, I think we would all be delighted.
There's another few mentions of giving us data - just let me contain my excitement again. Data to show that we are "providing the outcomes for the patients who rely on us most". Interesting wording. I read that as "more targets that take you away from seeing patients". You've got someone working with the CQC and NHS England on this, so it is guaranteed to go down well with jobbing doctors.
You want us to "respond to the needs of busy, working families" by offering seven day opening for routine medical care. Another big tick on reasons for those best and brightest to join us. You seem to have made all of the above, frankly underwhelming commitments, based on all practices offering seven day a week opening. A bright, magic new future for general practice.
The BBC published a poorly worded article on their news website this week, asking "Why are GPs so angry?" - there's been a lot of chat online about this, and let me share some a few replies with you, from working GPs across the country.
"The never ending increase in workload without adequate resources" "Being told we do everything badly" "Bureaucracy and over-regulation of everything we do" "Feeling that despite trying my hardest and putting in far more than the public seem to think, I am letting my patients down. I just can't give anymore"
So Jeremy - we aren't a complicated bunch. All you needed to do was invest more in general practice - give primary care the 11% of the NHS budget it used to have, and we will solve the rest. Cut the bad press, because you know you can with a few phone calls to the right people. Ditch the pointless regulation and box ticking. Let us do our job. You still haven't realised how dire things are. No-one can recruit. It won't improve with this insipid panacea. Where I work, one GP training scheme has NO trainees next year. None. Another has a third of the places filled. The last one, only half.
This new deal? There's nothing in it that makes me hopeful, or makes me feel you understand what you are dealing with. NHS general practice is collapsing. To persuade any young doctors to go into it now, the carrot needs to be a whole lot bigger than the stick. So thanks, but no thanks.
On behalf of all hard-working GPs in the country,
Dr Zoe Norris.
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_________________ He fights for the users.
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Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:55 pm |
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jonbwfc
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:26 pm Posts: 17040
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Ministers Must Get Real Over NHS Crisis Says Doctors Union HeadFining A&E units because people return within 30 days is one of the most utterly bonkers notions I think I've ever heard of. I mean, obviously, treating someone for a heart attack is going to prevent them from having an accident 29 days later, isn't it  ? Also, this line.. I want a Ferrari. If the local Toyota dealer can't sell me one for £5000, is that a problem they can fix? Everybody knows what people want. But most reasonable people know (to misquote) 'you can't always get what you want but sometimes you can get what you need'.The thing seems to be the government has no interest in managing expectation to somewhat realistic levels, only in using it as a stick to beat public services into the ground with. 'They can't provide our pie-in-the-sky promises, they must be rubbish'. No, it's 'cos your promises are the work of a utter simpleton.
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Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:23 pm |
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cloaked_wolf
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm Posts: 10022
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We generally say "you were promised a Rolls Royce service when there's only enough budget for a Fiesta".
There's increasing pressure on the health system and I have patients who have had operations cancelled. This is what happened under the Tories and actually became better under New Labour because they pumped so much money into the system. Waiting lists came down and outcomes improved.
There was a pretty set of graphs I saw a while ago. One showed how NHS funding had increased steadily over the last ten years up until the last few where it tailed off. Another showed outcomes vs income - as more money was pumped in, outcomes improved.
_________________ He fights for the users.
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Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:00 pm |
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