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Syria Vote 
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sabotaging amendment denied 390-211, main vote on.

Ex head of British forces in Afghanistan on Radio 5 has just said that killing civilians was a 'necessary evil' when fighting terrorists and that in the past British forces have been 'un necessarily cautious in trying to avoid collateral damage'. I think possibly the Army should have put forward someone else.


Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:18 pm
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Final vote
Yes 397 No 223

Passed by 174, so a substantial majority.


Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:31 pm
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Early guesses say roughly a dozen Conservative MPs voted against and something like 60 Labour MPs voted in favour.


Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:36 pm
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jonbwfc wrote:
Final vote
Yes 397 No 223

Passed by 174, so a substantial majority.


We'll learn yet.

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Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:36 pm
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I have to be honest, even though I think the decision is a grave mistake, the day's business has been fascinating and I can't honestly complain about how it was done. Given the system we have, democracy was definitely allowed to happen. The arguments were largely respectful and apparently sincere, even when diametrically opposed.

I think they're wrong but I think they came to the decision properly. Time will, as you say, tell if we make things better or worse.


Point has been made on the radio that even if every labour MP had voted against, the motion would still have passed.


Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:44 pm
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All this time I thought I had a diverse bunch of friends and colleagues, but I clearly just hang out with a bunch of dyed in the wool liberals, because I don't know ANYONE who thinks we should start bombing.

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Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:56 pm
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I think bombing is a very bad idea, but I was struck by a point Margeret Beckett made - we have recognised ally agreements with France and they have formally asked for our support. Legally, we are required to join in no matter how bad a mess it may make sadly.


Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:05 pm
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Part of game review but a little commentary from Mr Biffo of Digitiser 2000:
Just Cause 3 review

Read the first section before the But Anyway heading.

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Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:48 am
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I really didn't want the UK to get involved. Let others fight this time. Iraq and Afghanistan have gone so wrong IMO.

Certainly I don't agree that killing innocent civilians are a "necessary evil" - it's easy to say that when it's people you don't know or care about, but if the roles were reversed, and there was an invasion on UK soil, nobody would want innocent civilians dying.

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Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:07 am
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wrong wrong wrong on so many levels
democracy was not done this day ...

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Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:16 am
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MrStevenRogers wrote:
wrong wrong wrong on so many levels

Yup.

MrStevenRogers wrote:
democracy was not done this day ...

Nope. the one thing we can say with certainty is that the decision was arrived at democratically, assuming you consider our system of government to be democratic anyway. And while it has many faults, it's much more democratic than anything a large chunk of the world can claim to have.


Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:36 pm
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MrStevenRogers wrote:
wrong wrong wrong on so many levels

It's a tragedy, to be sure.

To quote Lt. Col. Nguyen Huu An, People's Army of Vietnam:

Quote:
Such a tragedy. They will think this was their victory. So this will become an American war. And the end will be the same... except for the numbers who will die before we get there.

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Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:40 pm
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Jesus wept, only two Lib Dems actively voted against it out of eight

Syria strikes: Find out how your MP voted - BBC News
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34987921

A handful of Tories demonstrably have more wit.

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Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:05 pm
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The running gag at the moment is that the Chilcot enquiry into the Syria war has started, with the expectation that it will be ready in good time after the war has finished.

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Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:24 pm
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David Cameron warns of lengthy Syria campaign | World news | The Guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/d ... ael-fallon

Quote:
The defence secretary, Michael Fallon, disclosed that the aircraft were using Paveway bombs and had “dealt a real blow” to the Isis-controlled oilfields. The British campaign would not in the first instance be hitting Raqqa, deemed to be the command and control centre of Isis, Fallon said, adding that he would personally approve targets.


They could tell Fallon a food cart was a weapons factory and he'd approve a strike ffs.

Quote:
Fallon said the air campaign, due to be supported by reconstituted Syrian troops, could last three years. “The American estimate of the campaign in Iraq, which began last year, was that it would last at least three years and we’re not halfway through that yet. The operations there by the coalition have lasted just over a year and the prime minister has been pretty clear that this is going to be a long campaign to ensure that Daesh are thrown out of Iraq and that they are degraded and defeated in eastern Syria. This is not going to be quick.”

He said most of the initial airstrikes would focus on Isis depots, supply routes, logistics, command and control and oil wells from which Isis derives revenues.

He said the French, in joining the air campaign a month ago, had been surprised by the number of infrastructure targets. Fallon held out hope that a diplomatic and political path would open up this month with a planned agreement among the Syrian opposition groups in talks in Saudi Arabia. Opposition representatives in turn would attend UN-sponsored peace talks, probably in New York, involving all the key regional partners, including Iran.

Fallon said: “We want a new Syrian state including some of those who are fighting it helping on the ground. Obviously we hope in Syria that we will be able to get the Free Syrian Army, who at the moment largely have been fighting [the forces of Syria’s president, Bashar al-Assad], involved.
Map of the region

“The best news is the peace process is under way, [involving] all the key partners, like Russia and Turkey, that will lead to a transitional settlement in Syria that will lead to the departure of President Assad, and a new government that can lead to elections in Syria.”

He said: “The Russians are starting to see a future for Syria that does not involve Assad.” He added that some of the argument at the moment among the various partners was about the timetable.

“While that process is under way we have to deal with this terrorist threat to us in western Europe and we need to squeeze the terrorists, and that is what the RAF is now free to do.”

Britain is not coordinating its air campaign with Russia in terms of targets, but there is a formal agreement to prevent conflict between broadly western and Russian air campaigns.

Fallon defended the joint intelligence committee estimate that about 70,000 non-extremist troops were available to fight Isis, a claim that proved to be one of the most contentious in the Commons debate.


Oh yeah, nothing could possibly go wrong with that plan. I mean that's as sensible as a list of planned targets.

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Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:09 pm
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