I'm not talking about classes, we will be doing those at the weekends. I was talking about purely medical appointments (scans, test results, the important stuff!). Would YOU take holiday to go to the doctors?

Damn right*. And middle managers, who know they can get away with coming in half an hour late every day and then leave at lunch time

I'm not sure the "It's not fair I'm paying for your kids education" stand much ground. Who here didn't get the chance to a free education? Who was paying for it then? Surely your taxes are paying off your education, much like when I pay for my pension (however that'll work) I'll actually be paying for anyone currently being paid a pension.
The only people it's not fair for are those people who were there at the start when they had to pay but didn't get a free education.

Obviously I'm pro children, without children there is no support for the future...And when I'm old I really don't want to rely on a stupid diseased youth, who is so because they didn't have an education and couldn't afford medical care.

Paying for children is a much better use of money, in my opinion, that paying for people who can't be bothered to work or funding people to be blown up on the battlefield.

*Point taken, I'll not tar everyone, but those who do really do annoy.

No I would take paid sick leave. Of which I have a finite number per year I can claim - which is in my contract. And (I believe) it's a standard of employment law.

I also have opted for the work-paid healthcare scheme & private accident insurance that I pay for out of my own pocket.

I have had to book holiday for regular follow-up appointments. If I was genuinely ill, it was okay, but check-ups were not covered by paid-for sick leave.

*shrug*

Well, yes. I have done and will likely have to again for routine stuff. I take holiday for dentist appointments and (as an example) I've taken the day off so I can attend the doctors appointment my Mister has next month for minor surgery. I can take statutory sick leave allowance for sickness and emergencies, but anything else I expect to come out of my holiday allowance.

I agree. My parents and their generation paid for me to have a free education in this country (they paid privately for my education overseas though) because they chose to have children. I didn't say it wasn't fair that I was helping to pay for all those things, I already am, quite happily (ish) since that's how a society like ours works. I paid my own way through University with jobs and savings as well. The bit I questioned was, since I am already helping to pay for all those things, while not requiring anyone to help pay for pregnancy or kids I don't have, is it fair that I should now also have to help pay for someone to attend hospital appointments etc when they aren't the patient?

I acknowledge that pregnancy isn't considered an illness, but if I was going to hospital for a scan to find out why my ovaries don't work properly, and I wanted my partner (prospective father of future children) to attend then he would have to take holiday if he wanted to go, I don't see how this is any different?

I too have subscribed to private healthcare through my employer because I am able to, this will help offset any costs incurred from any eventual future pregnancy and hospital costs.

If paid paternal healthcare visits are considered to be fair, how much time (in terms of hours) extra will they be taking over the course of a "normal" pregnancy? How many scans and test result appointments are there likely to be?

Actually, that's not strictly correct.

Statutory Sick Pay only kicks in after three days continuous absence, meaning it's no good whatsoever for a doctors appointment. It's also fairly worthless (about £79/week IIRC). I'm not lucky enough to have sick leave as part of my contract (In fact, I don't think I've ever had any more than the statutory minimum, in any job I've been in), so any doctors appointments I have to take as unpaid.

So if I essentially have to pay for being genuinely sick, I don't really see why someone should be paid to take time off for something they don't actually need to be attending.

That said, I think there should be some flexibility for paternal care, in terms of time off (even if unpaid), but TBH that should really be down to the employer. It's a reasonable request really, and I'd be pretty annoyed at any employer that refused that.

Is this, perhaps, the problem? It's not fair because no one does it consistently...If a mother gets time off at all, should the father not get time off too? If she gets paid should he? Should they both take holiday?
In todays world where women in particular are ever striving to be equal, men seem to be knocked down in some respects to be made less equal.

At the moment I've got a very lenient boss who will let me leave two hors early some Fridays to catch the train and still pays me. As I said, in my last job, I wouldn't have been so lucky...



I agree, I wouldn't demand paid leave, I wouldn't mind if I had an unpaid morning off and if I could do things in the evening or at the weekends I'd ask my partner to arrange it as such. But for some important moments, I'd just want to be given the chance to be there.

I completely agree, and with access to the option of paid holiday, you would have that chance, even if no other way (unpaid holiday/flex time etc) existed.

Well to quote my HR department...

"at your managers discretion"

Which relates to my original point. There is no legal entitlement for the father.

***DISCLAIMER***

In an ideal world employers would grant everybody the time off, male or female, to go to these events without it eating into your holiday time / wages etc etc etc etc. I agree that it is shame that this is not the case with many employers. I also think the gender discrimination is an issue.

***END DISCLAIMER***

However, surely taking half a day out of your annual holiday to be present at 'the important stuff' isn't such a burden now is it? Or is it, as one might expect, an inflated sense of self-entitlement?

Shouldn't one who chooses to have children should deal with the consequences? Even if those consequences are of detriment to their annual holiday allowance?

But you could still book it out of your holiday entitlement couldn't you? Your manager has discretion over that, but both hospital appointments and holidays are moveable feasts in terms of when they happen.

Women have the "managers discretion thing" for when they make hospital appointments as well. CT (number 7 of the 12 women currently pregnant at my work) re-made a scan appointment for the week following the original date, partly so her husband could get the holiday, but partly so she wouldn't be clashing with a really massive Conference event she was presenting at. Women may be legally entitled to *have* the paid leave for appointments, but the when of them is still at management discretion, you just have to hope your employer isn't going to be an @rse about it.

Ill say it again ---> "at the managers discretion". As there are no legal entitlements there is no guarantee your employer (mine anyway) will let you have the holiday.

Yes, that's true, all holiday entitlement is "at your managers discretion" but there isn't any real reason that your employer will stop you from booking your annual holiday entitlement whenever you please, and for whatever reason you please, unless there is a real business need.

If there is something big coming up at work that a person *knows* they can't get out of, then they have the option to make sure the appointments aren't scheduled for then, it's not like the baby will go anywhere if they have to bring a scan date forward by a few days. Also, it's likely that the pregnant partner will be arranging hospital appointments around her work as well (if she works) so finding convenient times for all people and employers "shouldn't" be that hard for anyone.

You have an employer who seems to be quite flexible and if you have concerns about whether you will be able to get the time off then discuss it with your manager and see what their take on the situation is.

In the perfect world you just described then no one will have any problems

Its not always that simple though is it

I currently dont have any 'worries' as I work flexi time and have a fairly nice manager. My issue is the fact whilst a woman has a legal entitlement for this kind of stuff a man has nothing. Zero. Zilch. Whatever spin you put on it that is simply unfair.