The army have been supporting the police with public disorder for 50 years in northern ireland - they have plenty of experience.

Didge

I'm actually amazed no one was killed last night, in fact the police don't know for sure yet if anyone was in the flats above the various premises torched. Looting and mindless vandalism is one thing, but setting fire to residential buildings is quite another - that's practically attempted murder, or at the very least manslaughter if someone is killed.

I hope the law comes down hard on these idiots, but I suspect it won't.

This will not happen, even though some people think it should:


My concern about all this is also rooted in history. If we take stock at some of the big, overlaying issues of our time, we have the following:
• A recession - probably far bigger and more wide-reaching than any other we can remember
• A long, ongoing foreign military campaign with no discernible results to show for it, apart from the list of names read out by the PM at the start of PMQs.
• Civil unrest. I thought that the students were a start. Yes, they had a cause, but clearly this current wave of events is driven as much by the desire for a new TV as it is form social justice (I’ll let others try to untangle that particular mess)
• Calls for the return of the death penalty - a small fry issue compared to the above points, but I’m seeing this vocalised a lot on Twitter and FaceBook today in the light of the riots
• Calls for the deployment of the army onto the streets of London (and possibly elsewhere)
• We could also add in the heavy regulation of the press following on from the phone hacking scandal.

All of this adds up in my mind to a potentially pretty terrifying situation. My inner pessimist, who is working overtime this week on a number of issues, tells me that really we are on the brink of something pretty ugly.

That went down really well in Northern Ireland, didn't it! It's not like the Army ever shot anyone inappropriately or made the situation worse...

England is not Northern Ireland, not even close. The army does not belong on the streets of Great Britain in a policing capacity, it never has and it never will.

If that sh*tehole that is London was nuked, what city in England would become the new capital?

Birmingham. That’s our second capital city.

The situation isn't analogous at all. The army weren't deployed in NI because of random trouble in the streets, they were deployed there because there were several irregular armed forces already active (The IRA & INLA for example) and the option of letting things be looked like leading to civil war. I don't think any sane person is suggesting this is about to become the second English civil war are they? Even then putting the army into NI led to some pretty awful consequences (Bloody Sunday etc). I'm sure the army is a bit smarter about these things than they were but it only takes one bad decision.

We can't bring the army back from abroad even if we wanted to (see earlier post) and we shouldn't even if we could. As an argument, it's a non-starter.

Birmingham is generally referred to as 'England's Second City'. I suspect a lot of Mancunians don't agree though.

Jon

Just heard a bunch of teen and twenty-something girls on the radio justifying the unrest.

"it's against the guvment init? it's to show them police that we can do what we want."

When asked if they expected the unrest to erupt again this evening, they replied "yeah, hopefully"

So the correspondent asked them how they can justify trashing and torching homes and businesses in their own community.

"we're attacking the rich people, them wiv businesses an such"

Cool, all business owners are minted. Apparently.

This is not a cry of desperation from the disenfranchised youth, it is the brain-addled grousing of a bunch thick c*nts.

Well they are thick because they have had a bad education. Some of the victims may not have insurance so will lose everything as a result. If they really wanted to attack the rich attack Kensington and Chelsea. Better still vote.

Or maybe they just never turned up to school. You've no way of knowing. I think you've done your normal level of argument something of a disservice with that comment.

The Army got it wrong on more than 1 occasion. Whether they 'made the situation worse' is open to debate. What would the situation have been if they hadn't been deployed.?

I'm sure that there are a great many RMPs who have training similar to civilian police forces and could be used to great effect.

It would be sad to see the army on the streets, but not as sad as seeing our communities torn apart by the morons committing the violence over the past few evenings.

I personally believe that they should be stopped by practically any means necessary.

Didge

As for their bad education there are many reasons why. No family support at home. Non attendance, poor teaching or oversized classes. Not all are the fault of the individual concerned.

My comment about Kensington and Chelsea was not to be taken seriously. Though if someone wanted to attack the rich that would be the best target not in the areas where you live. People around Tottenham are likely to be in a similar boat to the rioters.

As Spreadie mentioned not all businesses are minted. Many are scraping by. Some might have forgone some insurance cover just to get through this tough patch. Also many so called chains are really just franchises. So the owners are small businessmen and women and not multinational corporations able to pay for any damage out of petty cash.

If they do not like the cuts or policing vote. Make your feelings known to the MP. There are many legal non violent ways to show your frustration. If you are not involved in any criminal activities and have simply been harassed by the police for being black. Take legal action make complaints to the authorities. Longer term if you do not like what the government are doing vote. Kick the inbreds out.

You're assuming they're smart enough to be able to think long term enough to consider the democratic or legal process. Given some of them have been filmed in clear daylight stealing goods from shops, I don't think they're that smart.

Jon

Very true. In our consumerist society this will be one solution for some. The fact that so many have been arrested could be seen as a good sign. It all depends on how serious the crimes that they have been arrested for really are. As for the police injuries list I am dubious of such claims. I remember the figures for police injuries at a power station protest. Almost all were heat related or bee or wasp stings, one was for a bad back from sitting in a police car all day, and nothing to do with the protests. That could be happening now with the figures for police injuries. For genuine injuries we should give the police the full support.