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One of the definitions of F1 is that it is open wheel, open top. Always has been, hopefully always will. F1 is sensitive to it's history.

The majority of deaths caused by injury in Formula 1 are not caused by head injury. They are caused by component failure.
Perhaps we should restrict the speeds to a more survivable 30mph? ;)

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Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:07 pm
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ProfessorF wrote:
One of the definitions of F1 is that it is open wheel, open top. Always has been, hopefully always will. F1 is sensitive to it's history.

Patently, it isn't. They've conclusively proved they don't give a damn about history other than for marketing purposes. They're not still driving in open cabins and leather helmets the way Fangio did. Nor are they driving on slick tyres with massive superchargers the way Jackie Stewart did. There is almost nothing about the modern, titanium and carbon fibre, computer telemetry monitored, wind tunnel tested V10 car driving around a purpose built F1 circuit in Dubai that has anything to do with the history of F1 other than the ethos that it's designed to go very very fast.

If F1 is actually about anything, it's about progression. It's about pushing the technical envelope. It's about looking forward, not back.

The idea that F1 cars have to have 'non enclosed cockpits' is entirely arbitrary. They've chucked away huge lumps of the sport's 'history' when they became non-profitable. After Sirtess and Massa, if another driver gets badly injured due to a head impact with a piece of debris, it will get very expensive indeed for the F1 teams. Look at what happened with Senna - Ratzenburger got killed, they didn't fix the reason, then Senna was killed the same way. The result is the F1 powers spent christ knows how long in Italian courts and spent millions of pounds on lawyers and then had to spend millions more to make sure it didn't happen again. if that looks likely to happen this time round, do you honestly think the likes of Bernie Ecclestone will give a second's consideration to 'history', or will he just immediately do whatever most efficiently protects his arse?

ProfessorF wrote:
The majority of deaths caused by injury in Formula 1 are not caused by head injury. They are caused by component failure.
Perhaps we should restrict the speeds to a more survivable 30mph? ;)

Well that's a wonderfully eloquent straw man argument but it doesn't matter a bag of beans. I suspect nobody wants them to stop driving around at 200MPH, I certainly don't. That's the whole point of the thing. However, legal responsibility and possible litigation require them to make it as safe as possible for the people doing so. Recent events seem to have been pretty good evidence (to me at least) that having the driver's head sticking out of the thing with only a helmet between them and whatever is flying around out there is one of the things that they may look at and say 'well, I don't think we can live with that any more'.

To be honest I don't see what is particularly 'sacred' about F1 cars having open cockpits. Given they all wear entirely enclosed helmets, you can't see the drivers anyway. The cockpits are now designed so you're essentially coccooned other than your head when sat in one and at best you can see the top half of their helmet and not much else. The neck protection systems they've installed post Senna mean they're pretty much rigid in the cockpit anyway. What you're saying is you desperately want to see a roughly 30cm diameter piece of painted carbon fibre for an hour or so that occasionally wobbles about a bit. Err... why?
It's not like bikes, where you can see the rider's weight shifting and how they are manipulating the centre of balance. You're not going to learn anything from it. With an enclose cockpit you'd still get the camera view of the driver's steering wheel so you'd see what's going on. What exactly are you missing?

As I say, nobody has yet come up with any sort of decent explanation of why F1 cars have to have open cockpits. Given virtually every F1 team throws away virtually all of the car every couple of years, given the drivers helmets are essentially just another place to put corporate sponsorship and given F1 is the sport that hardly gives a tinker's whatnot for vast swathes of it's history, what exactly is being 'saved' here?

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Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:51 pm
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You've answered your own question, but you can't see it, because you're blinded by the science.
The spirit of F1 has always been about pushing the envelopes. Except when it's not, and we're slowing the cars down.
It's about technical advances, except when it's not because they'd make the sport dull or give unfair advantage.
Yes, things develop and move on, and driver safety is far, far better now than it has been at any point prior. I'd far rather be sat in an F1 car that's going head first into a wall at 140mph, canopy or not, than practically anything else.
The consistent thread to any F1 car is that it is an open wheeled, open topped car. Always has been.
The minute you put the driver inside the car entirely, it's not F1, you're more or less saloon car racing.
If you want to put the driver under a canopy, there's many, many racing series that do just that.

How many drivers have been killed in F1 due to being hit in the head by debris?

The fundamental fact is that these people understand entirely that motor sport is dangerous, but they choose to get into the car and go racing. Why stop them?
F1 is a bit dangerous (although now far safer than it has ever been), that's the point. It's not like we're dealing with a family saloon.
Would you say then, extending your argument to it's logical conclusion, that all soft top cars should be banned from sale and tin tops sold exclusively?
After all, I've had first hand experience of something falling off a lorry on the other side of the motorway and striking my windscreen at a closing speed of about 130mph. I was shaken, but not half as much as the bloke behind me in the Caterham would've been.

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Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:13 pm
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Jon

"wind tunnel tested V10 car"

F1 use V8's not V10's

"Patently, it isn't. They've conclusively proved they don't give a damn about history other than for marketing purposes"

Many things have changed in over time from the days of Hill, Stewart, Hunt, etc etc of course but one thing that has remained constant is the cockpits and wheels are open.

"Nor are they driving on slick tyres"


We're also back to racing on slicks by the way.

"Ratzenburger got killed, they didn't fix the reason, then Senna was killed the same way"

Ratzenberger and Senna did not die in the same way either. Ratzenbergers wing came loose in a scrape but he continued to race (qualify). The wing came off and went under the car causing him to go off the track and suffer a basal skull fracture in the impact.

Senna went off the road due to a failure of sorts and a wheel came off voilating the cockpit area, causing skull fractures, whilst a piece of the upright penetrated his helmet.

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Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:09 am
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Whatever happens to F1 in the future they are already looking into debris related safety...

CLICKY!

A good point made is that the helmet that Felipe was wearing was a step taken years ago to improve safety and most definitely saved his life. Without the helmet (or with a lesser helmet) that spring would have done significantly more damage than it did.

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Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:50 am
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8172310.stm
This could offer some interesting situations.

Brawn v Schumi :D
Hamilton v Schumi :D

In a Ferrari that's not the over lord it once was - how good a driver would he proved to be ?

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Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:45 pm
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I think he'd be mad to consider a return to F1, albeit a temporary one. After all, he's got nothing left to prove, and only his reputation to be diminished. Despite him keeping in shape, it's not the same as the stresses driving a Formula One car places on your body. And he reportedly had a smash in February which resulted in a neck injury - considering the strain F1 puts on a healthy neck, that has to be a factor too. Nah, I can't see it myself. I hope he doesn't to be honest. I'd give one of the test drivers a chance to prove himself in a race seat. Ferrari haven't got a chance of either title this season, so use the remaining races as an extended test session to try new parts and hopefully make next year's car a potential winner.

Hope we see Massa back in the Ferrari next year (if not by the end of this season?)

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Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:44 pm
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BMW are leaving F1 at the end of the season

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 173865.stm

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Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:09 am
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AlunD wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8172310.stm
This could offer some interesting situations.

Brawn v Schumi :D
Hamilton v Schumi :D

In a Ferrari that's not the over lord it once was - how good a driver would he proved to be ?


I wouldn't be suprised if Alonso wants to race for Ferrari, seeing as Renault are banned from the next race, apparently he is looking to move there also

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Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:39 am
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Good new from Ferrari

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Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:53 am
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8172310.stm So he is going to keep Massa's seat warm for him then :D

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Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:31 am
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How is he going to keep his duties as the stig now?!?!?!? :lol:

It should make for an interesting race. I think the two most likely outcomes are that he bottles it on the first lap and finishes last or he steps up and wins the race.

Can't wait to see it now.

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