Enjoy it is one thing, but it's not always quicker these days. London to Paris is quicker by train. If you're taking luggage, you can go a lot further afield in the same time as an equivalent flight.

London to Paris is one journey, which has had an advanced train system and a ruddy great tunnel pretty much specifically built to service it. Let's try some alternatives (using Google map's routing data..)

Manchester to Turin
By car - 15h 26m
By train (Virgin Intercity, Eurostar, various euro trains) 1d 13h
By air (direct flight) 3hr 15 mins - say add two hours check in at either end - 7h 15mins

Birmingham to Barcelona
By car - 16h 52m
By air - 2h 15 min + two hours check in either side - 6h 15min
By train - can't find a route

Newcastle to Hamburg
Car - 14h
Train - 19h
Air - 7h accounting for checkin.

Care to find me a route from any major city in the UK to any major city in Europe other than London to Paris that is quicker by train than by air, even if you have to check in two hours beforehand and it takes two hours to get your baggage off the carousel? Air may very well be more expensive but it's almost inevitably quicker unless 95% of your journey is one Eurostar ticket.

You seem very angry, do you need a holiday?

What he said up there ^^^

If you're not in London, then yeah. Because our system is so inefficient in the UK. But if you're in London (as I believe Caz is) The TGV from Paris and other high-speed European trains offer a plethora of destinations, Barcelona included, in more comfort, with less hassle and similar times.

Milan to Paris takes 7 hours on the TGV (Not to mention starts at just 25€ each way) And that's only because it goes through the Alps and has to slow down a bit. A flight would be 4.5 hours including the requisite hanging about. The train is quieter, you see more and is arguably less stressful. Is 2 hours really that big a deal?

The flight from Milan to London takes 2 hours, so call that 5 with check in, baggage and getting through passport control. The train takes 11 hours, but that's only because you need a 2 hour break to change trains in Paris.

Is flying faster? Yes. Is it faster by enough of a margin to go through the aggravation, when you can just relax and see the countryside your passing through? Not always, in my book.

You said 'you can go a lot further afield in the same time as an equivalent flight.' That wasn't true. Better/less stressful/easier? Subjective judgements all, which are fair enough - I rather dislike flying as it happens, so I might even agree with you in some occasions. You might see a few hours difference as inconsequential compared to less regulation and titting about and I might agree with you about that. But what you said simply wasn't correct.

If you look purely at the travel times for the two alternatives, then no.

But I think there would be examples of going to certain parts of Southern France, Switzerland and Northern Italy, where in practice the train could take about the same amount of time. But I have no way to prove that, as I don't have the budget for a Top Gear style race.

That's what I meant. But your point is conceded.

if you build in a margin to account for the fact that the tube/ train/ bus may not get to the airport in a timely manner, train does make sense.
I think the most important thing about Eurostar is that the seats are huge, there is a lot of legroom, a nice drinks carriage and upgrading to first class is comparatively cheap for a nice meal and quiet.

Unless you're journey is end-to-end, any connection can go tits up, regardless of the mode of transport involved. I tend to prefer having an hour or two of wiggle room for any long stage of a journey, just in case. The major difference of course is that if it's a train or ferry, you still have your luggage with you. The fact you effectively give most of your stuff away when you travel on a plane is one of the things that worries me about them.


Yup, Eurostar is very nice. But it's not quicker than a plane.

True, but for a lot of people it doesnt matter

Northampton to the German Ore Mountains.

Real-life door-to-door times:
Plane from Stansted to Leipzig-Halle: 10 hours
Vauxhall Astra via tunnel: 14 hours
Audi A8 via tunnel: 10.5 hours

Didn't know you were in Northampton. I go there quite a bit as I have a good friend that lives there.

We so need to arrange a forum meet-up now you've said that.

With 2 of us? lol

:embarrassed:

What I meant to say was that I seem to remember that there are a few forumites not too far away and we arrange a moot

So embarrassing...