If you can afford a second home, a second £1Kish a year shouldn't worry you so I don't think charging the c.tax will be deterrant enough.

I don't see it as a deterrent myself, I'm not against people having second homes. What I object to is how the current system raises everybody else's council tax as they have to make up the shortfall for all the people who are paying a fraction of what they should be.

AFAIK most rat poison isn't exactly what you would call instantaneous.
The common ones are basically anticoagulants & heamoragics (they cause uninhibited internal bleeding) so the rats bleed to death internally over time (normally between 7 and 14 days) after ingesting the poison. These are considered to be more humane than the older poisons as they are meant to be less painful.
Older poisons generate toxic gas (Phosphane) when they hit the stomach acid but can take several days (typically between 1 and 4) to cause lethal effects if ingested or can be used as a fumigant when reacted with acid.

Anyone eating a rat that's been poisoned will therefore basically consume the same thing and be subject to similar effects once they have ingested a sufficient amount.

Charity begins at home. I'm more worried about the homeless British people to be frank. We're handing out enough benefits to immigrants as it is.

The Evening Standard has started a dispossessed fund to help Londoners which is great. Shame more like that isn't being done around the country.

As for the Polish our British builders are suffering as they are undercutting all the jobs and work out there (and I know this first hand as my partner works in the building trade). How many jobs are going to Brits at the olympic standium?? I would love to know.

As others have said if they are people living like that get them back to the country where they belong. For too long this country has been seen as somewhere where people can get money for free. It disgusts me the councils are paying £1000s a month to provide homing for large families. We're only a little island. When are the signs going to do up to say 'we're full'?

Are we talking home as in homeland or home as in the nuclear family?
We hand out too many benefits full stop. A workshy person is workshy full stop. English native / foreign immigrant makes no difference. I sure as sh1t wouldn't give more to "needy" natives if there was some way of giving less to "needy" immigrants.

I disagree. Firstly, since we're a nation in a fairly developed state (financial woes aside) we shouldn't be looking to private intiatives to prop up what are government obligtions to their country people. Secondly, dispossession, and the bleeding heart story of thousands doesn't cut it for me. This is England, not N.Korea - people have quite a fair degree of choice how and where they live - and there are a great many ways to live within any level of income. If you can't afford to raise a child, don't have one. Or four. If you can't afford to commute on public transport, work local. If you can't afford M&S pre-made dinners, go to the market. Callous? Perhaps - but despite feeling I'm quite liberal - I'm not into all this "they can't help themselves" rubbish - and certainly not into the "...so we should help them" nonsense.

If English workers can't compete in the open market then they deserve to be put out of work. Again, no free rides. We are talking about commerce here - not charity. No one deserves a job, they earn it. And having worked with a great number of contractors who prefer not to employ British labourers, not because of cost, but because of work ethic, then I'd have disagree with you again.

It saddens me when an English person forgets the values that make our country great. I'm in danger of contradicting myself, (but at the same highlighting contradictions in your argument also Caz) - without compassion where would we be? Xenophobia is not the solution to "our own" troubles.

Snowy I don't know if you know but I am the direct descendant of an 'immigrant'. Yet my mother has worked all her life and NEVER taken any handouts from the state. Yes some people out there take the micky and that's life. I have also worked solidly for the last 23 years and the longest I was out of work was 3 months and I never claimed anything in that time.

As for the builders I know plenty with a very good working ethic. I have seen my partner at work and he's in full pelt mode from the minute he starts until the job is done. You think contractors are choosing the Poles for work ethic? No it's not just that, they're undercutting the Brits so now everyone in the building trade is finding it very hard. There are good workers and bad in any field. My partner was out of work for 2 years due to the recession and he's very lucky to have work now. We count our blessings.

You want me to feel sorry for Polish people BBQing rats? Well there are millions of people all over the world suffering. I feel sorry for mankind and they way we are treating everyone, all the animals and the planet. Not a lot one person can do though. We should all start thinking in a global sense rather than just worry about our own country but hey that's another argument.

I disagree with this particular point. There's a difference between compassion for people born and raised here who genuinely need help to survive, and people who come here for whatever reason and then can't make it stick.

I don't see why we shouldn't arrange to help these people go back to their country of origin where they will have family and have access to benefits because I think the people who genuinely need help are lost in the shuffle in this country because there are so many who don't really need the help and are stretching the resource.

Allowing our country to be continually taken advantage of is nothing to be proud of IMO.

Well said

I didn't, nor based my reply on any notion you were or weren't. I can only surmise you & your mother are a fine example (and most probably a typical one) of why we shouldn't close our doors with a "We're full" sign on.

The truth is that there's nothing that you can do to stop someone offering to work cheaper to win favour with an employer. Working in the consultation side of architecture I see it first hand myself with companies driving fees lower and lower to win jobs and staff taking the hit (either through redundancy or increased workload) as directors do their "best" to make the best of what they can. All you can do is earn your keep - but yes, unfortunately sometimes even that's not enough.

A question I have always pondered is how those who have come to the UK for work can afford to live cheaper (and so allow them to drive wages down in certain sectors). In my bartender days a number of my Polish colleagues lived in over-filled flats way out of town to keep their rents down, their landlords didn't know (or care) - and so their money went further than my equivalent income ever did living in EC1. Did I move to make my money go further? No - I was quite content - having been brought up never knowing great expendable wealth and to appreciate the toils and sacrifices of life. Perhaps more could learn from those less decadent?

Of course, there are a great number of holds in our state systems that allow certain financial obligations to be flanked by the wily. I can pretty much guarantee my landlord saves a fair amount of his vast income from going into the government purse through devious means - but instead of shaping up and tackling the real problems head on we as a nation tend to settle on moaning about others.

No not at all - my heart's hardly run dry. I simply would prefer you (or anyone) not to turn the unfortunate set of circumstances that saw these Poles where they are into a vehicle for championing hostility toward cultural diversification and/or justification for the UK (and it's peoples) inability to do a better job of managing itself.

If either of you come to my door in the middle of the night requesting my aid (for whatever hypothetical reason) do I then turn you away pointing out that you made the decision to walk up to my front door, that I didn't invite you, and that you'd be best off taking your problems elsewhere? Hmmm.

I'm horrified by the number of NIMBYs here.

Let's run with this. So say carolyn comes round needing a place to stay because she's lost her job/separated from partner/cut of from family/etc (touch wood it never happens). She mentions this good will to others. Suddenly there's a huge queue of people wanting to come into your house to receive your good will. Would you then accept them all? You have limited money, food and shelter.

I think it's acceptable to help people to a certain extent.

If I decided to up sticks and move to, say, Canada, I see no reason why I should try to sponge off others if I couldn't be arsed to work. If on the other hand, I tried to set up a business, used all of my cash, failed and was penniless, I think that's slightly different.

They were pandering to the middle classes.

Yes but what about helping them home? to Poland or where ever. The Polish government could pay and they would collect from their citizens in the future. That happens with Brits abroad, AFAIK. The UK Consulate will pay for the flight but the person has to pay back the government the sum involved.

that is a hell of a statement, one i, myself would be very ashamed to make
screw tourism unless you mean tory'ism

and a vast number of homeless in London are EX service personal
if the 'so called' Govt. are not willing to give any aid to 'our' own what hope for anybody else

what a state we have ended up in and its going to get much, much worse …