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The Random Sh*t Thread Pt 2 
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forquare1 wrote:
Why? Because people have been given a computer and not properly trained. Why haven't they been trained? Because computers are easy to use :roll:

</rant>


So, you're essentially saying that you should require a computing science degree to become an admin assistant?
A good grounding in the arcane aspects of Office is a big help, yes, but that's not the same as being a CLI maven.
What you describe shouldn't be a failure of the operator, but a failure of the software that doesn't allow the operator that degree of ability.
I don't think learning a list of CLI commands would have made much difference - most people require a visual representation of what they're doing, oddly enough, so they can understand what it is they've done.
Most CLI commands exist solely as some characters on a display, some bits on a hard drive and inside the users head. And that's the problem. Without an understanding of the system, you can't use a CLI reliably. So that's why we have pretty GUIs and software, and that's as it should be. We made the machine, it should do as we please, with a minimum of fuss and hassle, and without interrupting the work flow, and most importantly of all - in a manner easily understandable by your average user.

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Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:48 am
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ProfessorF wrote:
forquare1 wrote:
Why? Because people have been given a computer and not properly trained. Why haven't they been trained? Because computers are easy to use :roll:

</rant>


So, you're essentially saying that you should require a computing science degree to become an admin assistant?
A good grounding in the arcane aspects of Office is a big help, yes, but that's not the same as being a CLI maven.
What you describe shouldn't be a failure of the operator, but a failure of the software that doesn't allow the operator that degree of ability.
I don't think learning a list of CLI commands would have made much difference - most people require a visual representation of what they're doing, oddly enough, so they can understand what it is they've done.
Most CLI commands exist solely as some characters on a display, some bits on a hard drive and inside the users head. And that's the problem. Without an understanding of the system, you can't use a CLI reliably. So that's why we have pretty GUIs and software, and that's as it should be. We made the machine, it should do as we please, with a minimum of fuss and hassle, and without interrupting the work flow, and most importantly of all - in a manner easily understandable by your average user.


No, I'm saying people should be properly trained if they are going to have such an incredible amount of computing power in front of them, the problem is that because "anyone can use a computer", nobody gets training. When they do go on training programs, it seems they come back with stories of "Oh look, I learnt how to print double sided!" or "Oooo! I can put boarders on my Word document!", hardly time saving techniques...And surely that is why they got a computer in the first place, to save time?
The GUI will inherently slow things down, unless you know keyboard shortcuts, at which point your back to the CLI mentality.


Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:55 am
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forquare1 wrote:
The GUI will inherently slow things down, unless you know keyboard shortcuts, at which point your back to the CLI mentality.

Not for your beginner to average user it won't.

Take two beginners and sit them in front of a computer each.
Make one use the GUI whilst the other has to use keyboard shortcuts.
Have them make a Powerpoint presentation
See who wins

The GUI will only slow you down if you really know what you're doing. If however, just like the vast majority of users, you've had zero training and there is no manual available, you'll never do it unless you have a GUI

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Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:43 am
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Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:48 am
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rustybucket wrote:
forquare1 wrote:
The GUI will inherently slow things down, unless you know keyboard shortcuts, at which point your back to the CLI mentality.

Not for your beginner to average user it won't.

Take two beginners and sit them in front of a computer each.
Make one use the GUI whilst the other has to use keyboard shortcuts.
Have them make a Powerpoint presentation
See who wins

The GUI will only slow you down if you really know what you're doing. If however, just like the vast majority of users, you've had zero training and there is no manual available, you'll never do it unless you have a GUI


I'm with rusty on this one. I know my way around basic programming in a few languages, have years of experience with advanced software, documents and spreadsheets, yet I would still take quite a while to get the hang of a purely non-GUI interface. And I would probably have to force myself to learn.

The top 0.1% of computer whizzes (those who enjoy Linux, for example) know that it is possible, after much experience, to achieve far more with command lines, not to mention far more productivity. However, for the remaining computer users, it is about being able to do something. That means not being scared off within 30 seconds of inserting the Live CD.

As for your example of a secretary, anyone with your amount of computer skill will never be employed in that position entering data all day when they have the skill to earn far more doing something else!

To increase uptake of Linux among those with little or no computer experience (and no desire to have to learn to much), the command line has to go. They want to watch videos on youtube and check their email, and with Microsoft/OSX it's just point and click. That will win over the black window and blinking cursor any day.


Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:19 pm
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I'm doing a Tesco order, anybody want anything? ;)

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Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:26 am
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pcernie wrote:
I'm doing a Tesco order, anybody want anything? ;)

Anything that's going! :-D


Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:26 am
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CMOT-Weasel wrote:
pcernie wrote:
I'm doing a Tesco order, anybody want anything? ;)

Anything that's going! :-D


Every little helps.

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Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:20 pm
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Autobot valve dust caps for my car wheels.
Yes or No?

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Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:26 pm
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ProfessorF wrote:
Autobot valve dust caps for my car wheels.
Yes or No?


they will get stolen :cry:

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Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:42 pm
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brataccas wrote:
ProfessorF wrote:
Autobot valve dust caps for my car wheels.
Yes or No?


they will get stolen :cry:


Doesn't that depend on what he means by Autobot valve dust caps?

I'm choosing to believe that they are valve dust caps that can turn into robots... imagine trying to steal one of them!

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Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:55 pm
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phantombudgie wrote:
As for your example of a secretary, anyone with your amount of computer skill will never be employed in that position entering data all day when they have the skill to earn far more doing something else!


I'm glad you think that highly of me, the job market certainly doesn't...

Secretaries are smart people, they have to be, but their knowledge hasn't been expanded in the area of computing. If you want your secretaries or other office staff to use computers, train them to use them, otherwise you are potentially wasting money.

I'm not saying get rid of GUI's, I am saying that GUI's can be a hinderance, and employers have used them as a way of cutting down on IT training. But what I'm really trying to say is that "everyday" people don't have a clue how to use the tools they are given, these are people who essentially make companies and the country work (without office workers, where would we be?).
Would you rather get your pizza delivered from someone who drove the delivery car and took the quickest route to your house, or by someone who took the same route but walked?


Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:06 pm
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forquare1 wrote:
Would you rather get your pizza delivered from someone who drove the delivery car and took the quickest route to your house, or by someone who took the same route but walked?

I think a better analogy would be someone that walked 10 miles around the one-way system following TomTom set to "car mode", when if only they'd been shown it they could have taken a short-cut that was just a few yards.

The kind of scripting you're talking about is very common. I would not expect a member of our admin team to be able to write such a script, but I would very much hope they might say to me or my manager "Hey, this task is very repetitive. There has to be a better way. Can't one of you boffins write a script for it?"

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Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:23 pm
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JJW009 wrote:
I think a better analogy would be someone that walked 10 miles around the one-way system following TomTom set to "car mode", when if only they'd been shown it they could have taken a short-cut that was just a few yards.


Problem is, with a CLI, it's like asking them to be confident enough to do it blindfold, down a one way side street lined with dustbins and full of potholes.
Next a burning warehouse.

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Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:24 pm
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