A few thousand died on 9/11, a few hundred thousand civilains died when the "Allies" bombed the crap out of Iraq.

It's funny what people get most concerned about.

There was a great comment about the 'mosque' being built at Ground Zero - "seems fair enough, we've been building ground zeros all over Afghanistan".
I forget where I saw it.

I quite agree. Less than 3000 people died in the trade centre on. Some figures suggest nearly 200,000 innocent iragi and afghani civilians have been killed.
Interestingly, 3000 people is roughly the number of people who die in america per week because they can't afford healthcare. And so many of the people who were all for going and blowing up the entire middle east after 9/11 are the same ones who opposed the healthcare bill. It does make you wonder about certain priorities.

Will definitely have to post that on a CNN comments section, if only to see how much abuse I get for it

That.

The Americans demonstrate such uncaring arrogance and selfishness that it's sometimes difficult to consider them "human". They're sure as hell no better than the people they vilify.

As for jokes, it's never too soon. Probably bad taste telling them to someone who's still crying over their dead son though.

Yes. They started a 'war on terror', and now it is practically impossible to tell the difference between their actions and the 'terror' they are trying to combat. While yes, a country does have a duty to protect it's people, an attitude that says 'American lives are the only ones that really matter', that is very worrying.

you do realize by saying that, you've made yourself sound just as prejudiced and blinkered as the groups you profess to despise?

As far as I was aware, atrocities are not measured comparatively. What has happen in Iraq & Afghanistan is deplorable, but so was the destruction of the twin towers. There is no moral high ground here for anyone to climb onto, both sides have managed to bomb it down to ground level.

Neither side in this conflict has any right to claim what they did was justified, the deaths of innocents never is. By attempting to portray one side as more 'wrong' than the other, you trivialize the deaths on both sides. Nobody is 'winning', it is not a game and there is no score.

Indeed. I'm know there are many Americans who feel the same way I do, and it's unfair to tar an entire nation with one brush. It's the same as presuming all Brits are Daily Mail worshipping football hooligans.

However, a nation is judged by it's actions. When I say "Americans" I am referring not to individuals, rather to the statistical entirety as presented by their collective actions.

In many ways, I'm as culpable for all the atrocity as the next man. All that is required for evil to win, is for the good to stand idly by and allow it. I'm always denouncing things and claiming moral high ground, but I've never raised an army to fight for my convictions. Frankly, I'm not sure who I'd be fighting...


Damned right.

Found it - Clicky.
Yes, I went looking.

Something strange occurred to me yesterday which is related to this in a way.

During the build up to the F1 race at Monza, there was a presentation on race safety. I told my son about Imola 94 and the deaths of Senna and Ratzenberger and had a look at the crashes on YouTube.

I had never seen the footage of the aftermath of either crash, but both of them shocked me to the core and I found tears in my eyes when I saw what must have been a huge pool of blood next to Ayrton's car. Despite it being over 15 years ago, I think that I might have punched anyone who made an inappropriate joke at that time.

And yet, I am well used to (let's say) dodgy humour and have often found it amusing even when I have recognised how inappropriate it is. I have a mobile phone full of jokes about Jacko and would show them to almost anyone, but then he invited ridicule and I don't feel bad about laughing at him in death although I DO recognise how it really is inappropriate to do such a thing.

The first thing this whole thread reminded me of is a film (I think South Park) where they say that it's too soon after the event to make a joke but I can't think what it is

I think that's drastically harsh and I don't he invited it any more than a mentally unwell person......


......but plenty of people don't, that's what it's never too soon.

I suppose that may bring up another question. 'What do we have a right to get offended about?'
I suspect that the 9/11 attacks had no actual impact on a huge majority of Americans (IE, Despite 3000 deaths, the proportion of americans who lost a relative or a friend would still be tiny). The only possible link that many could draw would be 'those that died were american. I myself am american'. If it was the loss of life they were appalled and disgusted by, there would be no way that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan would have garnered the support they did. Is there something else I am missing? If not, I don't see how most Americans can justify the level of offense that americans take from all things 9/11.
I suppose, trying to be more empathetic about it, I look at the 7/7 bombings in London. Yes, the loss of life was deplorable. I did not know anyone who died or was injured in it, so I have no real emotional connection to the event. What I do get angry about regarding 7/7 is the position the government put Britain in, because I suspect, had they not so readily supported America in it's wars in the middle east, the perpetrators would have felt little need to direct an attack on Britain in the first place. I am just glad they did not use 7/7 as a reason to go and invade another country....

Well, let's try out a very mild one. I have a feeling that this wouldn't really mean much to a lot of people but I thought it was quite clever in the way it had been done.


I think that a lot of the problem with 9/11 was that people thought 'it could be us targeted next, and if terrorists can bring down the WTC and attack the Pentagon then nowhere's safe.' There were many false alerts over the weeks following 9/11 and eventually we had the 7/7 bombings in London the fear of which persists to this day. I know quite a few people (including myself) who are still somewhat wary of any asian person getting on the Tube with a rucksack. Sad that anyone has to be regarded with suspicion but that's the way it is.