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Bitcoins?
http://www.x404.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17225		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  mikepgood [ Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Bitcoins?
So. Totally discredited?
Author:  timark_uk [ Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bitcoins?
?!?

Mark
Author:  Linux_User [ Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bitcoins?
I assume you're referring to this news story?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19486695
Author:  leeds_manc [ Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bitcoins?
First I've heard of all of it, I am the epitome of not surprised.
Author:  jonbwfc [ Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bitcoins?
Linux_User wrote:
I assume you're referring to this news story?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19486695

What, again?
Author:  ProfessorF [ Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bitcoins?
Is this that different from any other sort of fraud or theft of 'real' money then?
Author:  Fogmeister [ Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bitcoins?
Never even heard of it.
Author:  jonbwfc [ Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bitcoins?
ProfessorF wrote:
Is this that different from any other sort of fraud or theft of 'real' money then?

Well, it's not real money though, is it? Any more than if I cut out bits of paper and wrote 'money' on them. It's a virtual object which has value because people agree it has between them but that doesn't give it the same legal status as 'money'. I doubt very much if stealing it could count as theft. It could possibly count as fraud i.e. obtaining money by deception when the people who have done this 'cash it out' or use it in exchange for some service or good but until that point, I think it might be quite hard to convict them of any crime at all, any more than you can convict someone of a crime for cheating at Call of Duty.

Possibly you could get them under Computer Misuse but that may be the only thing.
Author:  ProfessorF [ Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bitcoins?
True, but it shouldn't be enough to undo it as a currency, should it?
Author:  jonbwfc [ Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bitcoins?
ProfessorF wrote:
True, but it shouldn't be enough to undo it as a currency, should it?

It may be currency by some definitions, but the point is BitCoin has no legal status as 'money' until governments choose to recognise it as such, because governments make laws and 'money' is 'legally protected currency issued by a national bank'. No government has recognised BitCoin as money yet (for what should now be bloody obvious reasons) therefore it is not subject to the laws that cover money.
It's basically not 'money' because 'money' is what they say it is. And therefore the special legal statutes that apply to money don't apply to it. Once the miscreants try to convert the BitCoin into something which is legally recognised as money, then they can be charged with obtaining money by deception. Up until that point, all they've done is twiddle some bits.
Author:  ProfessorF [ Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bitcoins?
It may not be 'money' in the usual sense, but it is a commodity nonetheless.
Author:  Linux_User [ Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bitcoins?
jonbwfc wrote:
ProfessorF wrote:
True, but it shouldn't be enough to undo it as a currency, should it?

It may be currency by some definitions, but the point is BitCoin has no legal status as 'money' until governments choose to recognise it as such, because governments make laws and 'money' is 'legally protected currency issued by a national bank'. No government has recognised BitCoin as money yet (for what should now be bloody obvious reasons) therefore it is not subject to the laws that cover money.
It's basically not 'money' because 'money' is what they say it is. And therefore the special legal statutes that apply to money don't apply to it. Once the miscreants try to convert the BitCoin into something which is legally recognised as money, then they can be charged with obtaining money by deception. Up until that point, all they've done is twiddle some bits.

Legally protected it may be, but the Pound Sterling (and indeed, the US Dollar etc) only have "value" because people give them that value and choose to accept them.

People could freely refuse Sterling just like they can with Bitcoin, so in that sense they're both currency.
Author:  tombolt [ Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Bitcoins?
Linux_User wrote:
jonbwfc wrote:
ProfessorF wrote:
True, but it shouldn't be enough to undo it as a currency, should it?

It may be currency by some definitions, but the point is BitCoin has no legal status as 'money' until governments choose to recognise it as such, because governments make laws and 'money' is 'legally protected currency issued by a national bank'. No government has recognised BitCoin as money yet (for what should now be bloody obvious reasons) therefore it is not subject to the laws that cover money.
It's basically not 'money' because 'money' is what they say it is. And therefore the special legal statutes that apply to money don't apply to it. Once the miscreants try to convert the BitCoin into something which is legally recognised as money, then they can be charged with obtaining money by deception. Up until that point, all they've done is twiddle some bits.

Legally protected it may be, but the Pound Sterling (and indeed, the US Dollar etc) only have "value" because people give them that value and choose to accept them.

People could freely refuse Sterling just like they can with Bitcoin, so in that sense they're both currency.


This. The legal aspect is the only aspect in which it isn't a currency. If it looks like a duck, etc.
Author:  jonbwfc [ Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bitcoins?
tombolt wrote:
This. The legal aspect is the only aspect in which it isn't a currency. If it looks like a duck, etc.

Well, anything can be a currency. 'Money' however is a different thing altogether, as I say. It's a form of currency, but it's a form of currency that has a government's recognition and backing behind it. That's what makes it 'money'. And because a government makes laws, it can make laws to protect what it calls 'money' over and above any other currency.

No government has recognised BitCoins as 'money'. That means, as much anyone might prefer otherwise, it is not 'money' and does not have the legal protection that 'money' enjoys. Because money is what governments say is money. Therefore, to discuss it as if it was money is no more sensible than discussing chocolate buttons as if they were money. It just isn't. Whether any given person sees value in it is irrelevant.

It may only be 'the legal aspect' but if you're talking about someone 'stealing' or 'counfeiting' or 'laundering' it, that's exactly what you're talking about - the legal aspect.

Jon
Author:  saspro [ Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bitcoins?
Bitcoins are still working & still holding value.

It's a shame it takes so long to change "real money" (that you don't actually ever see because it goes in to your account and you spend it with a card) to it.
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