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The EU - In or Out?
http://www.x404.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5268		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  Linux_User [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:43 am ]
Post subject:  The EU - In or Out?
I've been reading through a LOT of EU Law this evening, and it got me thinking about the "European question". I'm very much in favour of EU membership, but how do you feel?

So, the European Union, should the United Kingdom stay in or get out?
Author:  Blue_Nowhere [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The EU - In or Out?
Can we please have a Shake it all about option?
Author:  big_D [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The EU - In or Out?
In

Transferring money around is easy, between member states, apart from the UK, there I lose money, because of the currency change and lose again because of the bank charges.

I can travel all over the EU without having to show any ID, unless I come back into the UK.

I can travel all over the Euro zone without having to change money, but coming back to the UK, I have to go through the rigmarole of changing money. I also end up with a pocket full of 10s and 20s (50s are rare), no 50s, 100s, 200s or 500s to keep the number of notes in the pocket down... And if I do manage to get 50s, a lot of shops treat them as if I'd handed over a 500€ note! :?

From a business point of view, it is easier to do business in the EU than outside. The UK seems to try and make it as hard as possible to do business, but it is still easier than doing business with non-EU countries...

The Lisbon Treats is a bit of a problem, but no worse than some of the stuff the USA has implemented post 11-9-2001.
Author:  l3v1ck [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The EU - In or Out?
OUT
We can leave the EU but still be in the free trade zone.
The EU was a good idea to start with, but it has become a big bureaucratic waste of money. The stupid laws they come up with! And what's wrong with different countries having different laws anyway.
Author:  bobbdobbs [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The EU - In or Out?
wheres the option for in but as it was originally presented to the biritish public as a free trade association and not a federal superstate.
Just look at the Irish situation.. you can vote but well make you vote again and again until you vote the right way. Go democracy!!!
Author:  l3v1ck [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The EU - In or Out?
bobbdobbs wrote:
wheres the option for in but as it was originally presented to the biritish public as a free trade association and not a federal superstate.

+1
Author:  Linux_User [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The EU - In or Out?
l3v1ck wrote:
OUT
We can leave the EU but still be in the free trade zone.
The EU was a good idea to start with, but it has become a big bureaucratic waste of money. The stupid laws they come up with! And what's wrong with different countries having different laws anyway.


Oh brilliant! Have all of the obligations of EU membership but no decision-making power! They also still have to pay to participate in the single market.

You realise that all EEA members still have to comply with EU laws, right?

I wouldn't trade a lot of EU laws for their previous counterparts (where they exist) and I certainly don't fancy surrendering my free travel through 27 states.
Author:  John_Vella [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The EU - In or Out?
I don't know enough about it to say yes or no.
Author:  dogbert10 [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The EU - In or Out?
l3v1ck wrote:
OUT
We can leave the EU but still be in the free trade zone.
The EU was a good idea to start with, but it has become a big bureaucratic waste of money. The stupid laws they come up with! And what's wrong with different countries having different laws anyway.


My sentiments exactly. It's now become a gravy-train for a load of freeloading timewasters who've probably never done an honest days work in their lives. It's probably still riidled with fraud. Then there's my favourite beef - the Common Agricultural Policy - or should it be called "supporting French farmers". This is by far the biggest waste of money, and because the French government capitulates at the first sign of unrest, there's very little likeliihood of it being reformed.
Author:  belchingmatt [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The EU - In or Out?
In.
Author:  lacloss [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The EU - In or Out?
big_D wrote:
In

Transferring money around is easy, between member states, apart from the UK, there I lose money, because of the currency change and lose again because of the bank charges.

I can travel all over the EU without having to show any ID, unless I come back into the UK.

I can travel all over the Euro zone without having to change money, but coming back to the UK, I have to go through the rigmarole of changing money. I also end up with a pocket full of 10s and 20s (50s are rare), no 50s, 100s, 200s or 500s to keep the number of notes in the pocket down... And if I do manage to get 50s, a lot of shops treat them as if I'd handed over a 500€ note! :?

From a business point of view, it is easier to do business in the EU than outside. The UK seems to try and make it as hard as possible to do business, but it is still easier than doing business with non-EU countries...

The Lisbon Treats is a bit of a problem, but no worse than some of the stuff the USA has implemented post 11-9-2001.



That is it exactly. ;)
Author:  okenobi [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The EU - In or Out?
Out.

Join the Euro if you want (or the dollar, we used to talk about that in bank a lot at the turn of the century!) but the EU as I've experienced it is a waste of money, time, energy and interest. It makes the Cornish unitary authority look efficient and is obsessed with paperwork and H&S.

People in Europe used to be into self-determination, post Nazi threat. Now they're happy to not even make their own laws. I'm not an expert and Linux I know you are relative to me on this, but I can barely put up with the UK government and their [LIFTED], why should I farm out power to somebody further away?
Author:  Linux_User [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The EU - In or Out?
okenobi wrote:
Out.

Join the Euro if you want (or the dollar, we used to talk about that in bank a lot at the turn of the century!) but the EU as I've experienced it is a waste of money, time, energy and interest. It makes the Cornish unitary authority look efficient and is obsessed with paperwork and H&S.

People in Europe used to be into self-determination, post Nazi threat. Now they're happy to not even make their own laws. I'm not an expert and Linux I know you are relative to me on this, but I can barely put up with the UK government and their [LIFTED], why should I farm out power to somebody further away?


In my experience (and certainly in my "field") EU legislation, compared to the British counterpart it replaces, is usually marvellous. The EU has done more for consumers in the last 25 years than the British government did - ever.

As for "not making our own laws" - the "people of Europe" now make laws collectively, this I feel is a good thing.
Author:  okenobi [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The EU - In or Out?
Linux_User wrote:
As for "not making our own laws" - the "people of Europe" now make laws collectively, this I feel is a good thing.


Then we're fundamentally at odds I'm afraid. I believe people should be able to make as many decisions about their own lives as possible. When government intervention is necessary, it should be gone by a government of our peers, that we know and actually trust and have empowered to act on our behalf. The EU doesn't have that kind of support/mandate. Our own government doesn't have that. We need to sort out our own country before trying to be part of something else. Plus, it's just too big an area to be effective.

I like the Schengen Area. That's about it though.
Author:  pcernie [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The EU - In or Out?
This is all prefaced with a giant :? ...

I agree on a lot of the consumer laws, but then you also have nonsense like the WEEE initiative, which realistically doesn't seem to help anyone, or the browser grief.

The French seem to have gotten away with flouting the so-called rules on all sorts of stuff for years, and I've long forgotten the details, but are we still effectively propping up Germany?

Did they ever sort out their budget audits etc? :oops:

From what I can gather, we wouldn't want to be at the whims of Europe the way Ireland and Spain are economy-wise either...

EDIT - I agree with a lot of the points Oke just made.
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