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'Blair, look at me, you have brought shame on yourself.'
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Author:  pcernie [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  'Blair, look at me, you have brought shame on yourself.'
Here Reg Keys, whose son was one of six military policemen brutally killed in 2003, writes about the mix of fierce anger and deep sadness he felt as he watched the former Prime Minister.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jan/3 ... aq-inquiry

I just thought this was an interesting account of that day's proceedings that you might be interested in...

Quote:
One lesson that could certainly be learnt above all is that never, never again should a British prime minister be allowed to lead our proud and gallant armed forces into a war in such a shambolic, catastrophic way, based on lies, falsehoods and deceit.

...

Blair was then questioned on the death toll, which he agreed was in excess of a hundred thousand Iraqis. His trite response was: "Well, it isn't us that's killing them, it's the insurgency." I gasped — I couldn't believe it. He was party to creating that environment where insurgency could thrive. Didn't Blair realise this? I thought back to adjutant general Sir Freddie Viggers, whom I have met on several occasions: in his evidence, he remarked that the invasion was run by a bunch of amateurs and, when questioned by Chilcot as to what level, Sir Freddie replied it went right through to the very top, at ministerial level. I reflected on this and thought how right he was.


Should we have a vote on going to war in future do you think, would that even be legally enforceable if possible? :?
Author:  Linux_User [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Blair, look at me, you have brought shame on yourself.'
pcernie wrote:
Should we have a vote on going to war in future do you think, would that even be legally enforceable if possible? :?


I believe Parliament has to vote on the matter now, but that wouldn't have stopped the Iraq war...
Author:  pcernie [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Blair, look at me, you have brought shame on yourself.'
Linux_User wrote:
pcernie wrote:
Should we have a vote on going to war in future do you think, would that even be legally enforceable if possible? :?


I believe Parliament has to vote on the matter now


Really? :o
Author:  Linux_User [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Blair, look at me, you have brought shame on yourself.'
pcernie wrote:
Linux_User wrote:
pcernie wrote:
Should we have a vote on going to war in future do you think, would that even be legally enforceable if possible? :?


I believe Parliament has to vote on the matter now


Really? :o


Hm, not so sure now. I'm trying to verify it - it seems Clare Short tried for this in 2005 but failed. I'm not sure if it has been tried again since.
Author:  Assassin8or [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Blair, look at me, you have brought shame on yourself.'
pcernie wrote:
Should we have a vote on going to war in future do you think, would that even be legally enforceable if possible? :?


Should we have a vote to going to war? It depends. If we act in an aggressive pre-emptive manner then yes. If we are defending ourselves, or reacting to an act of aggression, of course not.

Edit: By 'We' I mean we the people of this country.
Author:  pcernie [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Blair, look at me, you have brought shame on yourself.'
Assassin8or wrote:
pcernie wrote:
Should we have a vote on going to war in future do you think, would that even be legally enforceable if possible? :?


Should we have a vote to going to war? It depends. If we act in an aggressive pre-emptive manner then yes. If we are defending ourselves, or reacting to an act of aggression, of course not.

Edit: By 'We' I mean we the people of this country.


I was thinking in terms of parliament actually, which would be difficult enough, but I agree with you.
Author:  Assassin8or [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Blair, look at me, you have brought shame on yourself.'
pcernie wrote:
Assassin8or wrote:
pcernie wrote:
Should we have a vote on going to war in future do you think, would that even be legally enforceable if possible? :?


Should we have a vote to going to war? It depends. If we act in an aggressive pre-emptive manner then yes. If we are defending ourselves, or reacting to an act of aggression, of course not.

Edit: By 'We' I mean we the people of this country.


I was thinking in terms of parliament actually, which would be difficult enough, but I agree with you.


Parliament can't be trusted. I also think that they can't be trusted with the laws that we must all obey, either in the making of them or the modifying or questioning of those laws. In fact, I think the process of law in this country is pretty shabby and farcical.

Edit: Do you know what whips are and what they do in parliament? That's why parliament can't be trusted.
Author:  pcernie [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Blair, look at me, you have brought shame on yourself.'
Assassin8or wrote:
Parliament can't be trusted. I also think that they can't be trusted with the laws that we must all obey, either in the making of them or the modifying or questioning of those laws. In fact, I think the process of law in this country is pretty shabby and farcical.

Edit: Do you know what whips are and what they do in parliament? That's why parliament can't be trusted.


Again, I agree, but it would mean they'd actually have to consider public opinion a bit more as a result of having to vote.

Regarding the whips, yes, the clue's in the name, but that doesn't mean a vote would be a bad idea - you've still got the opposition parties, independents, the NI contingent and so on. It would still be a lot fairer than the situation we've gotten into with Iraq and Afghanistan :oops:
Author:  jonbwfc [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Blair, look at me, you have brought shame on yourself.'
Assassin8or wrote:
Should we have a vote to going to war? It depends. If we act in an aggressive pre-emptive manner then yes. If we are defending ourselves, or reacting to an act of aggression, of course not.
Edit: By 'We' I mean we the people of this country.

I agree with the principle - a decision of such magnitude effectively transcends the parliamentary mandate - but on a practical level it's surely the case that by the time a referendum was organised, run and counted the war would be over. The kinds of 'Wars' (as oppose to things like 'insurgencies') we're likely to be involved in these days don't actually take very long.


Jon
Author:  bobbdobbs [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Blair, look at me, you have brought shame on yourself.'
jonbwfc wrote:
Assassin8or wrote:
The kinds of 'Wars' (as oppose to things like 'insurgencies') we're likely to be involved in these days don't actually take very long.
Jon


The big problem is that we have to live with consequences of the war for probably a generation or two. Though if it takes along time to sanction an aggressive action then, when compared to what has happened in Iraq it can be argued would of been a good thing.
Author:  eddie543 [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Blair, look at me, you have brought shame on yourself.'
Well a war has to be voted through parliament since brown took over and abandoned the royal prerogative to go to war.
Author:  bobbdobbs [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Blair, look at me, you have brought shame on yourself.'
eddie543 wrote:
Well a war has to be voted through parliament since brown took over and abandoned the royal prerogative to go to war.

Has he done it?
A quick google seems to show articles talking about it and the constitutional reform and governance bill, which i believe is still talking about it and thus unlikey to hit the statue books before the general election and if that is the case the prerogative right is still in effect.
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