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How to report a website that is breaking the law?
http://www.x404.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6190		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  finlay666 [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:15 am ]
Post subject:  How to report a website that is breaking the law?
QQ about this, bought an item from Playtrade, wasnt as described so left feedback accordingly (neutral), got a rather abrasive email from the seller asking me to change it, replied telling him to bog off as there was more than that left.

Got a much ruder email back including such choice quotes as:
Quote:
Don't start getting all self-righteous and cocky with me just because you though the game was sealed in a different way to which you expected, the fact of the matter is the game was sealed with an Official Mircrosoft seal to prove that it was still brand new and in tact. Also it does not take a genius to work out that its possible to slide the business card into the case before dispatching.

TBH sealed is sealed, if you can insert/remove from the box... it's not sealed.

Quote:
Threats, how I love threats when someone knows they are in the wrong they always come out with a threat, yes the game is the USA version and no there isn't a law against selling it in the UK. But I thank you for your suggestion I will be contacting Play.com with a copy of the game and we will see what their "definition" of sealed is.

After suggesting he point out to others it's not a UK game as it is misleading.

After receiving such wonderful correspondence as that I have decided to remove the neutral feedback, and replace with negative to reflect his professionalism. Unfortunately Playtrade does not allow this to be done.

So I had a look at the guys website (David Boff incase anyone was interested, got what appears to be a home address too) and his website being an e-commerce site breaches the Companies Act 2007 (all e-commerce sites must display a VAT number essentially)

So who would be the best authority to report it to?
Author:  big_D [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to report a website that is braking the law?
First stop would be trading standards.

I just don't bother with online 2nd hand selling these days. In Germany, if you leave a neutral or negative comment on eBay, you usually get a solicitor's letter telling you to remove it or you will end up in court... :?
Author:  Zippy [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to report a website that is braking the law?
This kind of thing makes me angry and Big D in your case I would go to court, prove they were wrong and let them pay the expenses. There's no point in a website giving you the option to leave negative feedback to warn other people about the seller, if it then becomes a criminal act punishable by law FFS.

Finlay, my first stop would be Playtrade themselves, make copies of all the communication, any pictures you've taken of the item and the original advert without the information about the US game (and anything else it contained) and send it to their complaints or reporting department, explain that you're being harrassed by the seller for leaving honest feedback (and explain that you left neutral feedback to begin with because it wasn't a huge deal then) and that hosting this kind of abusive seller will hurt their business. Then contact trading standards with all of the same information and include the e-commerce site without the required information.

It might also be worth contacting whichever company hosts his e-commerce site because if he's trading illegally then it's possible that he's also breaching their terms of service. Don't put up with it, ignore it of back down though because it only increases the liklihood of him pulling it again.

Lastly, if the case is "unsealed" enough that he could slip a business card in, then it's unsealed enough that he could slip the disc out! At the very least that's the trades descriptions act breached, especially since he published the sale on the internet!
Author:  timark_uk [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to report a website that is braking the law?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad1Umj6hxMw

Mark
Author:  AlunD [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to report a website that is braking the law?
Trading standards and citizens advice would be my starting point.
Author:  Amnesia10 [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to report a website that is braking the law?
finlay666 wrote:
So I had a look at the guys website (David Boff incase anyone was interested, got what appears to be a home address too) and his website being an e-commerce site breaches the Companies Act 2007 (all e-commerce sites must display a VAT number essentially)

So who would be the best authority to report it to?

Well if he is operating from home try the council. He should be paying business rates. That will hit him hard. Especially with all the powers councils have now to snoop.

Secondly customs and excise re his VAT number.

Finally the Inland Revenue, chances are he is not declaring income.
Author:  Linux_User [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to report a website that is braking the law?
Well the first stop is Consumer Direct - they're the "front-end" for Trading Standards in this day and age (I wouldn't bother phoning your County Council/Unitary Authority, TS will only speak to businesses over the phone).

Is he a business seller or a private individual? If it's the former then great, if the latter then not so great.

As it stands, I'd be looking at S.13(1) of the Sale of Goods Act (not as described), and Regulation 6 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (Misleading omission).

If he's selling from his own website then make sure it complies with the requirements of the Distance Selling Regulations 2000 (there are requirements on what sort of information must be displayed etc), if it doesn't then tip Consumer Direct off about that too - then he'll get a nice letter from the appropriate TS department.
Author:  finlay666 [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to report a website that is braking the law?
Linux_User wrote:
Well the first stop is Consumer Direct - they're the "front-end" for Trading Standards in this day and age (I wouldn't bother phoning your County Council/Unitary Authority, TS will only speak to businesses over the phone).

Is he a business seller or a private individual? If it's the former then great, if the latter then not so great.

As it stands, I'd be looking at S.13(1) of the Sale of Goods Act (not as described), and Regulation 6 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (Misleading omission).

If he's selling from his own website then make sure it complies with the requirements of the Distance Selling Regulations 2000 (there are requirements on what sort of information must be displayed etc), if it doesn't then tip Consumer Direct off about that too - then he'll get a nice letter from the appropriate TS department.

Thanks, looks like I'll be getting in touch with Consumer Direct about it, absolutely no mention of the DSR either on the website.

Well I got another reply after addressing his issues (I haven't been rude about it or tried not to)
(Bold were the bits I sent)
Quote:
Sliding a business card inside a box is not tampering, people like you give this country a bad reputation with all your lame complaining about nothing. You buy a game for £2.99 which retails at least £14.99 and your complaining about a business card inside the case, even though the game remains new and sealed. As for there being a loose disc in the case that is bullsh*t and you know it because the packaging is designed so the disc cannot come loose.

Hands up anyone who has ordered a disc and had it arrive loosely falling inside the box (I told him I had to inspect it as I heard something rattling inside the box, was his business card.
Quote:
"I'm not removing the feedback I originally left. If I could replace it with negative feedback for your rude attitude to resolving this however, I would."

You dare to call me rude, when your the idiot who left irrelevant feedback bad mouthing the product I sold you without contacting me first when yes as you say it could quite as easily have been resolved. If you were not so rude in the first place and contacted me I would have offered you a refund or price adjustment as I do all my other customers.


I didn't bad mouth the product, I bad mouthed the seller.... looks like I had good reason to as well.

Quote:
"Mr Boff, I strongly advise you stop harassing myself and accept I am the customer not happy with the service they received or the way they were treated. If you continue to do so I am already aware of your address in Clapham as well as your poorly maintained website which breaches the Companies Act 2007 for being a commercial website that is not displaying a registered VAT number among other contraventions of the Act."

Congratulations threat number two you have my address, its lame because even an idiot like yourself would realise yes I too have your address, big deal. I am surprised you managed to read the card you described as "garish", yes I have a website and yes you are even more of an idiot because I do not have to display a VAT number if I am not VAT registered. Any more bright ideas genius?

(No kidding he has my address, I bought from him) :roll: (Maybe he isn't handling sensitive data like he should be...)
Wonderful that he has now said he isn't VAT registered, yet has a business for selling games online.

Interestingly the email he sent me this time is from a Mr Dale according to Facebook, not Mr Boff as he claims...
Author:  RedEyes [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to report a website that is braking the law?
finlay666 wrote:
Wonderful that he has now said he isn't VAT registered, yet has a business for selling games online.


Sorry Fin, but you're in the wrong on that point.

You are only obliged to register your business for VAT once your turnover exceeds a certain threshold (currently £68k p.a. IIRC). Below that, you can legally trade without a VAT number.

Unless there's some law I'm unaware of about online selling? :?
Author:  finlay666 [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to report a website that is braking the law?
RedEyes wrote:
finlay666 wrote:
Wonderful that he has now said he isn't VAT registered, yet has a business for selling games online.


Sorry Fin, but you're in the wrong on that point.

You are only obliged to register your business for VAT once your turnover exceeds a certain threshold (currently £68k p.a. IIRC). Below that, you can legally trade without a VAT number.

Unless there's some law I'm unaware of about online selling? :?


The Companies Act 2007 states that all website that are applicable (especially e-commerce sites which that is) have to display one
http://www.out-law.com/page-7594

How can he be charging VAT on items then? Either everything he sells is VAT free and something is dodgy there as he is selling goods which are new without VAT which should have VAT on them or he is charging VAT without a VAT number.

He also doesn't provide a contact email or any information on the DSR on the website
Author:  Amnesia10 [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to report a website that is braking the law?
RedEyes wrote:
You are only obliged to register your business for VAT once your turnover exceeds a certain threshold (currently £68k p.a. IIRC). Below that, you can legally trade without a VAT number.

Unless there's some law I'm unaware of about online selling? :?

The rules about registering only apply if your turnover is sufficient to warrant it. Sole traders do not necessarily have to register, and some register if they expect to go over the limit before they actually do. Distance selling regulations are separate.
Author:  RedEyes [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to report a website that is braking the law?
According to that link you gave:

Quote:
If the business has a VAT number, it should be stated – even if the website is not being used for e-commerce transactions.


So by the wording there, if he doesn't have a VAT number, he doesn't need to display one.

Basically, he's not charging VAT on his sales, as he's not VAT registered.

The way it works is like this:

VAT REGISTERED:

You charge VAT on your sales, which you have to give to the tax man. However, you can offset the VAT you paid on purchases against that (ie VAT charged less VAT paid=VAT bill)

NOT REGISTERED:

You don't charge VAT, and you pay VAT on all your purchases (which you can't reclaim like you could if you were registered).

So he's all legal as far as VAT is concerned (unless he's turning over more than £68k, which is doubtful :lol: ).

The rest of it looks fairly shonky though, give him hell on those bits. :D
Author:  finlay666 [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to report a website that is braking the law?
In that case he is an idiot for selling games and not being VAT registered, shop I used to work for was VAT registered as all they sold were games
Author:  jonlumb [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to report a website that is braking the law?
finlay666 wrote:
In that case he is an idiot for selling games and not being VAT registered, shop I used to work for was VAT registered as all they sold were games


If his turnover is under the VAT threshold then he'd be being an idiot for registering as he'd effectively be paying an extra 17.5% tax on all his profits...

Of course, this doesn't rule out the possibility that he's over the threshold and simply not declaring it. That would be the most devastating for him, as most other agencies are complete pussycats in comparison to the VAT men.
Author:  finlay666 [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to report a website that is braking the law?
Quote:
The owner of this web site is <RANDOM COMPANY NAME> Limited whose address is <WEBSITE>.co.uk, <HOME ADDRESS> (‘<WEBSITE>.co.uk’/‘we’ /‘us’/‘our’).


Are Limited companies under any more obligations?
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