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Swords and sword metallurgy
http://www.x404.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9548		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  trigen_killer [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Swords and sword metallurgy
Do any of you out there collect swords, or use any particular type of sword in re-enactments/martial arts or fencing?

I have always had a thing about weapons, but I am no nut-job to be sure, but most firearms are now (and have long been) illegal. I have recently been playing Assassin's Creed, and I love the sword fighting, and although this is not the first time I have considered it, it has made me think again about the whole business of swords/fighting/competitive fencing.

I have been having a good look around at various sites, covering various disciplines and types of sword, but I was wondering if anyone can offer insider advice based on their own experience, and dare I say- bad judgement.

There is a place not too far from me that does training courses specialising in two handed swords, and I will definitely be booking myself on one of those in the not too distant future, but any advice would be appreciated.

And, I already know about stainless steel- thanks.
Author:  belchingmatt [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Swords and sword metallurgy
What do you know about stainless steel? :?
Author:  trigen_killer [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Swords and sword metallurgy
Stainless steel is fine (actually very good) for purely ornamental swords, as it doesn't rust and maintains a high shine, but it's rubbish for functional swords as it is too brittle.

This is a classic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N4hprpRJhM
Author:  belchingmatt [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Swords and sword metallurgy
I've been watching a few metallurgical videos on youtube recently. Mainly welding but there was clip of a titanium sword being made by CNC. I'm not sure (other than expensive) how titanium works as a blade but there were also many other examples.
Author:  timark_uk [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Swords and sword metallurgy
There can be only one …

Image

Mark
Author:  davrosG5 [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Swords and sword metallurgy
belchingmatt wrote:
I've been watching a few metallurgical videos on youtube recently. Mainly welding but there was clip of a titanium sword being made by CNC. I'm not sure (other than expensive) how titanium works as a blade but there were also many other examples.


The blade will certainly be a lot lighter than a SS made one (assuming similar dimensions of course). Other than that, I'm not too sure if it's a good material for making a sord out of. How comparable are turbine engine blades to swords I wonder?
Author:  trigen_killer [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Swords and sword metallurgy
I've seen mention of titanium, but I can't imagine that they will be at all cheap. Besides, I would like something that at least gives a nod to traditional swords, but I suppose that titanium might be acceptable in fencing.

Not surprisingly, I have read up on the Katana and Japanese sword making in general. I was amazed when I read last night that just to polish the blade requires five years training in one of only two centres in Japan. There is a ten year apprenticeship, but I couldn't quite make out whether that included the first five years or not. :shock:

Anyone who knows anything about Japanese swords will know that they were folded many times to produce many layers of steel, but this also had a lot to do with the quality of the metal- from what I've read in more than one place. A traditionally made model can cost thousands of pounds, but it is not as necessary with modern steel. Non-the-less, the folding produces beautiful patterns in the blade when it is polished.

And, before anyone tells me, I know that the Last Samurai is on tonight, or at least my wife said so.
Author:  belchingmatt [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Swords and sword metallurgy
davrosG5 wrote:
belchingmatt wrote:
I've been watching a few metallurgical videos on youtube recently. Mainly welding but there was clip of a titanium sword being made by CNC. I'm not sure (other than expensive) how titanium works as a blade but there were also many other examples.


The blade will certainly be a lot lighter than a SS made one (assuming similar dimensions of course). Other than that, I'm not too sure if it's a good material for making a sord out of. How comparable are turbine engine blades to swords I wonder?


Titanium is a useful material for dive knives. Low corrosion and high strength, and even lighter than SS as you mention. It is expensive enough that I wouldn't consider wielding it in any way other than cutting in the normal fashion. I wouldn't want to take chunks out of it.
Author:  pcernie [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Swords and sword metallurgy
My knowledge doesn't go beyond the steel being folded many times and how cool some of the movie ones look, like the one Mark's shown, Kurgan's broadsword and shows like Blade :D
Author:  HeatherKay [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Swords and sword metallurgy
I'd have thought the weight of a blade must be important, too. If it's too light, it won't be so easy to wield effectively.
Author:  Amnesia10 [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Swords and sword metallurgy
pcernie wrote:
My knowledge doesn't go beyond the steel being folded many times and how cool some of the movie ones look, like the one Mark's shown, Kurgan's broadsword and shows like Blade :D

I think that only really applies to katanas. Many swords are folded a couple of times during the making. Western swords relied on weight to do a lot of damage. Metallurgy was not such an art in the west for a while.
Author:  big_D [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Swords and sword metallurgy
I've still got one of the titanium pin that was put in my leg, when I grew too fast... Interestingly/disappointingly, the pins never set off the metal detectors at the airport... :?
Author:  jonbwfc [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Swords and sword metallurgy
trigen_killer wrote:
Anyone who knows anything about Japanese swords will know that they were folded many times to produce many layers of steel, but this also had a lot to do with the quality of the metal- from what I've read in more than one place. A traditionally made model can cost thousands of pounds, but it is not as necessary with modern steel. Non-the-less, the folding produces beautiful patterns in the blade when it is polished.

I saw a series on the making of traditional samurai swords some years ago. Each stage of the process makes the world 'artisan' seem utterly inadequate. Even the initial smelting of the metal is crazy. They start off with a lump of iron ore roughly the size of a car and heat it up in an enormous fire. As the ore heats it cracks and that exposes different subveins of ore quality. This can take days. The master smelter can tell from the colour they glow when hot which veins of ore are good or bad.

So the ore is extracted, smelted and a steel bar is made, again this is painstaking and laborious process as the amount of carbon added is strictly controlled by eye. The bar is then passed to a blacksmith who does the folding and tempering of the steel. This takes weeks and includes hundreds of folds which create different crystalline structures in the various layers, which gives blade great strength. He passes it on to a polisher, who makes the actual blade. This again is done by hand, and they say if you meet an old blade polisher and he still has all his fingers then he's good enough to do the job. It is done by simple rubbing with stones and water, with each master sharpener having his own set of stones of different grades of roughness. Stones of sufficient quality for the final stages are thought to be rare and worth several times their weight in gold.

So then you have the blade part, with the characteristic 'wave' pattern in the steel but no decoration. It is then passed on to an engraver who patterns it as required (again, think about having to hold something that sharp to engrave it. It's a job for a careful man) and finally passed on to a 'dresser' who adds the grip and guard, which can be as simple or ornate as you like.

Each step is done by hand and each step is done by someone who in a UK trade would be seen as a master craftsman. It's not exactly surprising but a quality samurai sword will cost about the same as a car. The point is though they are treated more as works of art than tools and as such they will only sell them to people they think are worthy of them, regardless of cost.

There are some very good sword makers in Europe (they have a long history of making high quality bladed weapons in Toledo in Spain for example, and Sheffield got it's reputation for steel before most people had cutlery) but I don't think I've heard of anywhere else in the world that put the time and effort into getting it perfect that the Japanese do.
Author:  ProfessorF [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Swords and sword metallurgy
My old house mate was half Japanese - his uncle was the Emperors physician.
My house mate is entitled to the family sword, but feels it's safest left in Japan with the family there, and I can see his point, cos I bet that thing's awesome.
Author:  brataccas [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Swords and sword metallurgy
ProfessorF wrote:
My old house mate was half Japanese - his uncle was the Emperors physician.
My house mate is entitled to the family sword, but feels it's safest left in Japan with the family there, and I can see his point, cos I bet that thing's awesome.


I agree that it must be awesome if you can see it all the way from where you live to japan! :shock:
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