Meh.

It's a nonsense argument anyway:

1. Macs are PCs. It's like having a Bentley vs. Vehicle debate - the former is a subset of the latter.
   
   
2. In order to debate the respective merits of computers, one must specify the boundaries of the comparison. Are we comparing:
   
   
   • Operating Systems i.e. an OSX vs. Windows vs. Linux ad nauseum,
   • Tech specs at equivalent price points,
   • The nature of the ecosystems,
   • Their usefulness at a certain task,
   • Or more probably, our feelings towards the various brands?
   
   To try to have a true debate without defining objective constraints is rather futile
   
   
3. ChurchCat clearly, as he states, wanted to have a friendly banter and a bit of cordial back-and-forth. He is not one given over to flame-baiting and pissing-contests
   
   
4. Anyone who castigates, insults, reacts emotionally or pronounces judgement on someone's character based on Brand Logic (which is to say no logic at all) needs to closely examine his life and priorities
   
   
5. All Operating Systems Suck®

^ True.

I agree, except for some parts of D. Huge marketing departments (and parts of my concious and subconscious mind) are run on precisely that - judgements about people based on brand choices.

troll!

I stand by what I said.

Marketing is the systematic transmission of lies and half-truths, the Brand a parasite that feeds off low self-esteem and Fashion the intended sniping duck-hunt madness that results.

I understand how deeply ingrained this "take, make and throw away" mentality is, but people really need to look behind the curtain and see the Wizard for what he is.

Wow. I've never seen it expressed better

My ex used to have a sig from Oscar Wilde which read something like:

"Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months."

No, it isn't, those are by-products. Marketing is a vast sprawling discipline.
At a very first year of university level, it's the practice of:
Product
Price
Place (distribution)
Promotion
People (customer service)

Control those elements of your product or service and you're on the way.
To glibly say marketing is merely lying to people is to misunderstand the discipline.

Having worked in an ad & on-line media agency, I think Rusty is pretty much spot-on. Looking at the tat we used to get in, how I'd throw it in the bin, but the photographers & retouchers would tart up the image into something totally different and how the client would buy it for 2.99€ and sell it for about 50€, it was all lies and half-truths.

In fact, the e-store would sell the latest fashions at 50€ for the first 2 months, then 50% off, then 75% off for the final couple of weeks, and they'd still make a fortune on the stuff that was in the sales!

No

How about "To manipulate people's actions using ideas in order to move money from their ownership to someone else's" The product itself could be described as a by-product of the process.

I quite like the debates, they don't get quite so heated anymore which isn't quite as fun...Where is the fun when you can't get burnt!?

I used to learn a lot about both sides, being able to argue that OS X is better because it organises numbered files in numerical order like this:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
Rather than like this:
1, 10, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
And finding out that Windows can do that too was educational.



I'd say that Mac vs. PC is really saying "OS X and the Mac package (which is more like an appliance) vs. Windows and the 'generic' PC that is easy to customise".

I'd like to see more debates with Linux users in the fray, but I don't think people would like it, mainly because few people know about Linux (or not enough to argue against it). As a sweeping generalisation, most Mac users know about Windows, they may not be power users of it, but they know and use it. PC users don't know about Macs, they are happy using what has been stuck in front of them and don't want to budge from their comfort zone (and this is why, I expect, the debates get personal and petty quickly). Add Linux users into the fray and the Mac users don't know enough so bring themselves down to the level of the PC users, shouting things like "I want it to just work" and the like...

</sweeping generalisation>



Lying with style?

Most of the Linux users I know have never used a Mac, because Linux can run on a box that has such old specs, those users have never had the want or need to buy a Mac.

Mark

For machine spec, most Linux users I know are running the latest and greatest and upgrade regularly. But then these are people doing development and wanting to get automated tasks done quickly.

And we all know three Linux users who have used a Mac (regularly) here, there is of course our Linux guru, Dave, Mr Gav and the aptly named Linux_User

But yes, otherwise I'd agree with you, many Linux users haven't use OS X and have little want to use it.

I haven't met any of those people. I was basing my comment above solely on people I know and have met that use Linux.
In fact, one of them is such a Linux zealot/Apple hater that he doesn't even need to use a product or even see one with his own eyes, before he'll proclaim it as being either the next messiah or less than worthless.
All the Mac users I know (and have met) at least have a working knowledge of Windows before opining on it, so in that regard, Linux users are the worst offenders, in my personal experience.

Mark