I hate to agree with a gooner but I dont see any trolling.

RIM's response also being full of 'lies', or at least huge supposition.



As jobwfc linked, RIM's success story is varied.
Besides, having one CEO banging the drum with enormity and great hoop-la being countered by another CEO doing exactly the same - get the financial results and the market share out. That's a measure of success.
Truth is, nobody knows if a 7" pad device is going to be a success.
Yes, they'll sell some to the people who think they're too cool for Apple.
Yes, there'll be stories singing the praises of the device.
Yes, Apple's iPad will go on to become something of a benchmark; it's somewhat unavoidable after the brouhaha of the press.
Despite constantly being told I need Flash to have a 'well rounded internet experience', this doesn't seem to be something bothering the vast numbers of people purchasing the iPad or iPhone.

[quote]RIM's response also being full of 'lies', or at least huge supposition.[quote]
What lies would that be?
Also "lies" and "suppositions" are not the same thing, at least I am not aware that they are.

RIM's response seems pretty factual to me, especially compared to the Jobs' rant. Also Tweetdeck's developer confirmed that Jobs lied.

And I don't deny apple's better results but so what? They are different companies with different sizes so for the purpose of this debate fin results are irelevant.

Factual? The bit where he said "we know that 7" tablets will actually be a big portion of the market and we know that Adobe Flash support actually matters to customers who want a real web experience." is nothing but supposition. Or do they have a huge order booked in for a product? The public response to an unveiling is a very different thing to actual sales. Look at the launch of the Corvette in the 50's.

As for Jobs - he knows how to play the press. 7 years ago, he stated that there would be no Apple PDA or mobile phone. Plus ca change. Saying Android was a nightmare is just the same as RIM matey saying 'everything's fine'. It's expected. Neither side are going to say 'Well, he's absolutely right you know. We're [lifted], but he's got a point, we've been backing the wrong horse the whole time.'
History is littered with pronunciations from CEOs that invariably prove to be hugely wrong. Ask Michael Dell.



Results are entirely the point, surely?

Factual when talking about handset sales numbers. Did you read my original post at all or you just see what you want to see?

Playbook is marketed as a proffesional tablet so maybe 7" is the best size for. I am pretty sure Rim did their research before they decided to introduce it. So yes, RIM might know something that you don't.

Where are those lie again? I can't see them and you forgot to explain it again...

Where he said he 'knows' that the 7" is the format everyone should want, and that "we know that Adobe Flash support actually matters to customers who want a real web experience."
Sorry, but he doesn't. And that's not the story the figures tell. At best it's an opinion, at worst it's a lie.
YMMV.

According to the article you linked, Jobs “[cited] TweetDeck as an example of an app that had to be coded for 100 different versions of Android running on 244 different devices, where iOS typically has 2 versions (current and one previous) and largely binary compatible devices.”
Is this incorrect?

I think you have problems understanding written texts. RIM didn't say that everyone should want 7" screen. They said that they will be a big proportion of the market. Can you tell the difference between what you said and what Rim said?

People do want flash, maybe not everybody but you can't dispute this statement.

Are you arguing just for the sake of it considering you make up statements and twist words?

Can you tell the difference between opinion and fact? If he had said 'We think...' or 'We believe...' then that would have been fine - it would have implied that that was their view and they were planning assuming that. That would have been fine. But he didn't say that. He said 'We know..'. Basically, he's saying he is absolutely certain what's going to happen in a volatile, relatively young market in which several major companies are going to launch products in the near future. That, bluntly, is bollocks. He may have an opinion about what is going to happen. He may have good confidence in that opinion - CEO's of companies tend to have great confidence in their own opinions, comes with the trade - but he doesn't know what is going to happen in the tablet market any more than he knows what the weather is going to be in 10 days time.



7 million iPod owners apparently don't. People who have Android phones that don't run V2 apparently don't (and phones running Android 1.x are still on sale today). Put it this way - were more flash capable devices sold last year than non-flash capable devices? I'll put my hand up now and say I believe the people for whome flash on their mobile devices is a deal breaker are massively outnumbered by the people who don't give a stuff.


Jon

I am in the market to get one, but the lack of Flash is a non issue for me. As you say there are plenty of people who do not care about Flash apart from lazy programmers.

I'll make a point that does back this up....

I recently upgraded my Galaxy S to Froyo (Android 2.2) which comes with support for Flash

Do I use flash?
Only on Wifi, most flash apps are too intensive for mobile browsing and kill battery life and bandwidth if it's left on

It doesn't bother me, but it's nice to have, like marshmallows in a hot chocolate

Not meaning to pick at this but the 7 million iPod/iPhone owners dont have a choice. If they want an iPhone they dont get a choice. Now I'm not a flash fan myself so this isnt intended to be biased nonsense but I do wonder if given the choice how many iPhone/iPod/iPad users would actually install flash?

I suspect there's also a majority of users (my brother being a fine example) who have no idea what flash is, that the iPhone doesnt have it and why/what/where/when he needs it.

Saying 7 million iPod owners dont want Flash is a bit of a false statement really. You cant possibly know that.

I think that the numbers with iPhones and IiPod Touches is considerably more. Even so there is not a major grumble about the lack of Flash. It is the most problematic part of my machine. I have click2Flash to stop it most of the time. I would want that on my iPhone as well if they stuck Flash on the iPhone.

I would imagine that the vast majority simply do not care. It is a non issue for me.

I got the 7mil number from the post above. It's not my figure.

I also dont dispute everything you've just said. I was responding to a statement made that 7 million users dont want flash. I'm simply saying that you cannot categorically state that as a fact.

So, looking at it another way, 7 million users made an active choice to go for a phone that didn't support Flash. Whether they knew it at the time of purchase is unknown, but it seems they are still reasonably happy with the Flash-free decision they made.

Like Amnesia, I block Flash here because it is painful. I have to run it to access some sites, but I don't like it.

Or looking at it another way they're locked into an 18/24 month contract and cant do anything about it. Or they've accepted it and if they need to view a site with flash understand they need to do it on their PC/laptop.

All I'm saying is hate Flash all you want but dont make the assumption that if someone has an iPhone they dont care about Flash. I'm sure some probably dont but you cannot catergorically state that everyone doesnt.

I just dont like to see opinions stated as facts.