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pcernie
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Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:30 pm Posts: 45931 Location: Belfast
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 |  |  |  | Quote: by Peter Jackson on Monday, 11 April 2011 at 17:12
Time for an update. Actually, we've been intending to kick off with a video, which is almost done, so look out for that in the next day or two. In the meantime, I thought I'd address the news that has been reported about us shooting THE HOBBIT at 48 frames per second, and explain to you what my thoughts are about this.
We are indeed shooting at the higher frame rate. The key thing to understand is that this process requires both shooting and projecting at 48 fps, rather than the usual 24 fps (films have been shot at 24 frames per second since the late 1920's). So the result looks like normal speed, but the image has hugely enhanced clarity and smoothness. Looking at 24 frames every second may seem ok--and we've all seen thousands of films like this over the last 90 years--but there is often quite a lot of blur in each frame, during fast movements, and if the camera is moving around quickly, the image can judder or "strobe."
Shooting and projecting at 48 fps does a lot to get rid of these issues. It looks much more lifelike, and it is much easier to watch, especially in 3-D. We've been watching HOBBIT tests and dailies at 48 fps now for several months, and we often sit through two hours worth of footage without getting any eye strain from the 3-D. It looks great, and we've actually become used to it now, to the point that other film experiences look a little primitive. I saw a new movie in the cinema on Sunday and I kept getting distracted by the juddery panning and blurring. We're getting spoilt!
Originally, 24 fps was chosen based on the technical requirements of the early sound era. I suspect it was the minimum speed required to get some audio fidelity out of the first optical sound tracks. They would have settled on the minimum speed because of the cost of the film stock. 35mm film is expensive, and the cost per foot (to buy the negative stock, develop it and print it), has been a fairly significant part of any film budget.
So we have lived with 24 fps for 9 decades--not because it's the best film speed (it's not by any stretch), but because it was the cheapest speed to achieve basic acceptable results back in 1927 or whenever it was adopted.
None of this thinking is new. Doug Trumbull developed and promoted a 60 frames per second process called ShowScan about 30 years ago and that looked great. Unfortunately it was never adopted past theme park use. I imagine the sheer expense of burning through expensive film stock at the higher speed (you are charged per foot of film, which is about 18 frames), and the projection difficulties in cinemas, made it tough to use for "normal" films, despite looking amazing. Actually, if anybody has been on the Star Tours ride at Disneyland, you've experienced the life like quality of 60 frames per second. Our new King Kong attraction at Universal Studios also uses 60 fps.
Now that the world's cinemas are moving towards digital projection, and many films are being shot with digital cameras, increasing the frame rate becomes much easier. Most of the new digital projectors are capable of projecting at 48 fps, with only the digital servers needing some firmware upgrades. We tested both 48 fps and 60 fps. The difference between those speeds is almost impossible to detect, but the increase in quality over 24 fps is significant.
Film purists will criticize the lack of blur and strobing artifacts, but all of our crew--many of whom are film purists--are now converts. You get used to this new look very quickly and it becomes a much more lifelike and comfortable viewing experience. It's similar to the moment when vinyl records were supplanted by digital CDs. There's no doubt in my mind that we're heading towards movies being shot and projected at higher frame rates.
Warner Bros. have been very supportive, and allowed us to start shooting THE HOBBIT at 48 fps, despite there never having been a wide release feature film filmed at this higher frame rate. We are hopeful that there will be enough theaters capable of projecting 48 fps by the time The Hobbit comes out where we can seriously explore that possibility with Warner Bros. However, while it's predicted that there may be over 10,000 screens capable of projecting THE HOBBIT at 48 fps by our release date in Dec, 2012, we don’t yet know what the reality will be. It is a situation we will all be monitoring carefully. I see it as a way of future-proofing THE HOBBIT. Take it from me--if we do release in 48 fps, those are the cinemas you should watch the movie in. It will look terrific!
Time to jump in the car and drive to Bag End for the day. Video coming soon! |  |  |  |  |
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Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:16 pm |
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ProfessorF
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:56 pm Posts: 12030
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48fps? Double your footage allowances, double your storage space. Ouch. I'm sure it'll look lovely though. 
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Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:18 pm |
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l3v1ck
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Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:21 am Posts: 12700 Location: The Right Side of the Pennines (metaphorically & geographically)
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A much better idea than 3D IMO. 
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Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:33 pm |
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timark_uk
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:11 pm Posts: 12143 Location: Belfast
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I suspect it's also linked to the reduced light of 3D too. Upping the frame rate to 48fps should eliminate the reduction in brightness between 24fps 3D and 2D projection. Will the increased frame rate have any detrimental impact on TV broadcasts or DVD playback?
Mark
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Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:36 pm |
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l3v1ck
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Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:21 am Posts: 12700 Location: The Right Side of the Pennines (metaphorically & geographically)
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Doubt it. Even old TV can do 50Hz, new ones can do 100Hz. Neither should have issues with 48Hz filming. Though having said that, would existing DVD players need a firmware update to play 48Hz or not?
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Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:43 pm |
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pcernie
Legend
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:30 pm Posts: 45931 Location: Belfast
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I was wondering about that sort of thing too, alongside the likes of streaming services etc...
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Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:45 pm |
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ProfessorF
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Well, neither of those will look as nice as the cinema version. It's a clever move. You're halving the frame rate, so you're discarding frames, unless you want to watch it at half speed. It didn't used to be much of a hassle going from 24fps in the cinema to 25fps for PAL broadcast - you're film just ended up with a tiny slightly shorter running time. For an HD broadcast at 50i, I suppose you'd have much the same affair, but you're looking at 2 'lost' frames per second.
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Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:48 pm |
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timark_uk
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:11 pm Posts: 12143 Location: Belfast
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So the current crop of DVD players will either need firmware upgrades or have to be discarded in favour of new models capable of full frame rate playback? I suspect the often touted increased storage capacity of BD discs has just been gobbled up by this. Buy stocks in hard drive manufacturers now. (8+) Mark
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Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:05 pm |
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paulzolo
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I suspect in the short term, they will downsample and interpolated.
Long term - you'll be streaming them, so your STB will handle the frame rate.
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Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:14 pm |
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cloaked_wolf
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Quick read of wiki showed that BR discs can handle 50+ fps but only at 720p - at 1080p it drops down to 24fps.
As above, I suspect TV tuners will need to be updated to handle this.
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Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:52 pm |
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l3v1ck
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Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:21 am Posts: 12700 Location: The Right Side of the Pennines (metaphorically & geographically)
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Well that's no good. I'd want to watch 48fps at 1080.
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Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:53 pm |
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ProfessorF
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You could go to the cinema, watch it in much more than 1080 at 48fps. 
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Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:24 pm |
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finlay666
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:40 pm Posts: 4876 Location: Newcastle
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Not really, it'll be close to double but not quite there Shooting at 24fps usually only has a P frame (full picture frame) every second or 2, the rest are just vector transformations The P frame is the most substantial part of the image. Take the size of an average 1920x1080 image and times it by 8640 (1 hour at 24fps) at a 1/4mb image it's roughly 2gb just on video in compressed image only, no sound tracks or anything like that. A film encoded for quality to cut down the frames to say 2 P frames per second is 180mb + the size of the vector transformations 48fps could potentially have another 24 vector transformations so there is not much of an increase in size I'm surprised they didnt go for 50/60fps to be honest, given that those are required refresh rates of 720p/1080p televisions and would avoid any judders from refreshing mid frame or in the wrong part of a frame. It's the logical conclusion given that a lot of console games aim to run at at least 30fps, games like Halo 3 run at 60fps (30fps double buffered)
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Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:16 pm |
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ProfessorF
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:56 pm Posts: 12030
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Only if you're shooting digitally, like Jackson. If you're using film (and it's far from dead), then you're getting a full frame every 1/24th of a second.  A Red One camera recording to CF will give you about 8 minutes of 4K footage or 34 minutes of 2K footage on a 16GB card, or about 4-5 minutes (depending on resolution) on an 8GB card, so I guess they're doing something a little different? Yeah good point, wonder if it's to do with the projection capabilities of the cinemas?
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Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:11 pm |
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finlay666
Spends far too much time on here
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:40 pm Posts: 4876 Location: Newcastle
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That is a given of digital vs analogue  Not really, when it comes down to recording and storing, it's all about how quickly they can write it to the card, this is how quickly they can take the raw image, possibly apply a compression algorithm to it from lossy RAW to JPG/PNG and then add it to the frames, you can't apply a vector frame to a camera shooting in real time, it's quite a slow process to determine the change im image then generate a vector to represent that change (done badly can lead to smearing of the image on some bad recordings/copies as in terms of time/reward the time exponentially increases) a quick and dirty calculation... 4k is 4096x2048 so that image would be 4x bigger than a 1080p image, so 1mb per image, that is 24mb/s or 1440mb/minute, so 16 minutes would be roughly 12gb, before any sound input and differences in image sizes Depends how the camera shoots the images and saves them, I very much doubt they would give up that kind of info  Don't forget, as I'm sure as a photographer you know, most shoot in RAW lossy formats and apply their compression later, no image quality lost, control sample etc. It's much better to record lossy then apply the compression algorithms later to the image streams I think it possibly is, given that for a projector a fast response time is pretty unheard of compared to the speed of an LCD which is typically capable of ~500hz (based on a 15ms response time and 5ms grey-to-grey being rather generous with other things causing delay) Either that or the cost of new equipment in general across the board is prohibitive (I suspect even HDMI 1.4 would struggle with a 4k 48fps film bandwidth requirements)... but you will always get those purists that feel it is justified  Don't forget 4k itself isn't new, Serenity the film (from Firefly) was the first film shot in 4K and that came out many years ago
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Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:53 pm |
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