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ShockWaffle
Doesn't have much of a life
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:50 am
Posts: 1911
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  | | | | bobbdobbs wrote: | | | | davrosG5 wrote: Lets try it again from the top then: Current system - First Past the Post. On election day (or by post) you are issued with a ballot paper. You mark your candidate of choice with a cross and put your ballot paper into the ballot box. Once the polls close the votes are taken to be counted. Each paper is inspected and sorted into piles based on the number of votes each candidate receives. The candidate with the biggest pile of votes at the end of the count wins the election. Alternative Vote system: On election day (or by post) you are issued with a ballot paper. You may rank one or more candidates. You mark your paper in the order in which you think the candidates represent your views and opinions by putting 1 against the candidate that most represents your views, 2 against the candidate that next best next candidate and so on then place your paper in the ballot box. As I understand it there won't be a 'none of the above' option so if none of the candidates sufficiently represent your views then you can spoil you ballot or not bother at all (just like the current system). When the polls close all the ballots are taken for counting. The ballots are sorted on the First preference votes only (i.e. the 1 choices) and put into piles. If, at this stage, one of the candidates has accumulated more than 50% of the votes cast then they are declared the winner. If no candidate has achieved 50 % of the vote then the candidate with the lowest proportion of the vote is eliminated from the competition. Their votes are taken to be counted again. The smallest pile of votes is redistributed amongst the other candidates based on the Second preference votes on those papers. If there was no second preference vote shown on one of these ballots then it's 'out' and will not be used again. The piles are counted again. If one candidate has now got 50% of the total remaining votes they have won. If there is still no candidate with 50% of the votes in the second round of counting then the candidate with the fewest votes is eliminated. Their votes are redistributed based on the third preference (if there is one). This process is repeated until either there is a candidate with 50% or more of the vote or there are no more votes left to be redistributed (i.e. you are down to only 2 candidates) in which case the candidate with the highest proportion of the votes is declared the winner. HTH | | | | |
there in a nutshell is the biggest problem with AV. The amount of bloody explanation need to try and understand it as well as the idea that those who vote for the least popular parties erffectivly get another "vote". This sits uneasy for a lot of people and helps to explain why the NO campaign are ahead on the latest polls (or were when I last saw them). | | | | |
That, in a nutshell, is the problem with the no campaign. The guy explained the system perfectly well in a forum post that cannot have taken anyone more than 2 minutes to read and understand. Anyone who thinks it isn't worth this much effort to understand their electoral process should be dissuaded from voting on the simple basis that they can't possibly have the attention span necessary to make an informed decision on anything at all. Nobody is getting another "vote" (why are we inserting this perfectly normal word into quote marks?). Backers of the weakest parties are forced to compromise, their choices simply slide down a scale until one candidate or the other is shown to be at least tolerable to more than half their constituency. It's a limp system, but the only alternative on offer is what we already have: a system that doesn't even require that a majority of the constituents are prepared to piss on their MP if he is on fire.
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| Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:21 pm |
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ProfessorF
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:56 pm
Posts: 12030
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Still voting Yes.
Present system doesn't work, so let's try something else. Really, all your average voter needs to know is that you vote for who you want, then your second choice.
It's not rocket science. We're not asking them to organise the tally, just put a mark on a slip of paper.
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| Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:23 pm |
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JohnSheridan
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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:10 pm
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| | | | trigen_killer wrote: Right. NOW I get it. It was all this discard this and recount that that I didn't get. but I have issues. If I use the following as an example. There are fifty voters and five candidates. At the first count, the Conservatives come first, but only with 20 votes. Labour have 18. Lib-dems have 6. The Greens have 4 and the BNP come last with only 2 The BNP are discounted, but their second place votes are one each for Labour and the Conservatives. Now Labour have 19 and Conservatives 21. Am I right so far? Still there is no clear majority, so the Greens are discounted and what comes next- the third count? So, the BNP's third places are discarded completely at this stage, yes? So it is just the Green's papers that are counted at the third stage, but is it their second or third choice? Assuming that whichever is counted amounts to four votes for Labour, they now have 23 to the Conservative's 21 and Lib-Dems are out. Finally, the Lib-Dem papers are counted and Labour come in with 29 and the Tories 26 which- in the first instance is stupid because there were only 50 people eligible to vote and in the second instance, Labour have got in despite the fact that they were behind in the first count and mostly fourth place votes for the other voters. If you do the math, It might not be possible for it to work out like that, but I still don't see why a party can't get in with a minority of first place votes. You can pick holes in this anywhere you want, because I clearly still don't understand all of the possibilities. The only way that any voter can ensure that the less popular candidate doesn't get in is not to vote for more than one person and THEN we are back to first past the post!!!!!!!!!  | | | | |
Not quite correct - if BNP is knocked out in 1st round then "yes" their 2nd preference votes are redistributed. Now if there is still no winner then the Greens would be out and their 2nd preferences would be added to whoever is left. The BNP votes would have to be re-examined so if the BNP 2nd preference is still in the race thats fine, but if their 2nd choice is out then we move to their 3rd choice. No votes are disgarded unless they only had 1 preference and their candidate had already been knocked-out. Votes are simply redistributed according to 2nd preferences (and or 3rd, 4th etc preferences) depending who is left in the race. What gets me is that if ALL the voters only marked a 1st preference then we might as well have current system  I've voted "yes for AV" by the way as not perfect but slightly more fairer than the current system whereby someone can win with only like 30% of all votes cast. _________________
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| Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:29 pm |
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ProfessorF
What's a life?
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Posts: 12030
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| Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:37 pm |
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belchingmatt
I haven't seen my friends in so long
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 3:16 am
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Location: Middle Earth
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_________________
Dive like a fish, drink like a fish!
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If one is diving so close to the limits that +/- 1% will make a difference then the error has already been made.
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| Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:26 am |
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trigen_killer
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This does all depend on the electorate actually turning out. In the recent vote to allow the Welsh Assembly more law-making powers, less than 50% of the electorate turned out. Only just over half of them voted Yes. In the end, only about 30% of the Welsh electorate voted Yes, but it still counts as a "win" In the end, it is only those who bother to vote who make a difference. Love the campaign poster, Prof. _________________My lowest spec operational system- AT desktop case, 200W AT PSU, Jetway TX98B Socket 7, Intel Pentium 75Mhz, 2x16MB EDO RAM, 270MB Quantum Maverick HDD, ATI Rage II+ graphics, Soundblaster 16 CT2230, MS-DOS/Win 3.11 My Flickr
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| Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:29 am |
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bobbdobbs
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:10 pm
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So we have selection of the electorate on the basis of attention span and a quick test to see if they are informed enough to be allowed to vote then  so we get get the candiate/party thats least offensive to the majority. _________________Finally joined Flickr
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| Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:17 am |
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ShockWaffle
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In all honesty, if it were possible to do that, it would be right to. All rights are accompanied by duties (you have a right to self determination - you have a duty to respect other's rights in that regard, even if that means not doing things you want to do). The right to vote should be accompanied by the responsibility to exercise your judgment and pay attention to what your vote means. Vote against AV if you understand it and have a genuine concern that it undermines democracy in some way - I have no problem with that. But to vote it down because it is too complicated to summarise in a sentence of less than 5 words is not something I can respect. Isn't that one of the things that democracy is supposed to do?
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| Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:38 pm |
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trigen_killer
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Location: North Wales UK
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A colleague of mine explained his reasoning for voting "Yes" last night and when seen from his point of view, it does make sense.
He is firmly Plaid Cymru. Not so much because he wants them in, but because he doesn't really want the rest in. He knows that in this area it is essentially a wasted vote as they will not get in, but he wants to vote on principal as much as anything.
Of course, the fear is that if one votes Plaid, then perhaps the opposition party that one wants least of all gets a better chance of winning. By placing a second vote for the preferred 'other' party you can vote Plaid without fear that you will allow the Conservatives or Labour will get in because you have (unfortunately) essentially wasted your vote.
I do see why some see this as a "second" vote. At the end of the day if you want Plaid in, then you should vote Plaid, just don't expect them to win. If the Plaid (or other party) campaign and policies isn't strong enough to win the vote, then isn't that just TS for them?
No wonder it's controversial.
_________________My lowest spec operational system- AT desktop case, 200W AT PSU, Jetway TX98B Socket 7, Intel Pentium 75Mhz, 2x16MB EDO RAM, 270MB Quantum Maverick HDD, ATI Rage II+ graphics, Soundblaster 16 CT2230, MS-DOS/Win 3.11 My Flickr
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| Thu May 05, 2011 7:11 am |
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bobbdobbs
I haven't seen my friends in so long
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The right to vote means you can vote for who you like, regardless of what other people want you to vote for. In any way or manner. The only duty you have is to exercise it IMHO. Its not about putting the explantion into five words but if you people cant explain it in consice simple terms, how do you expect people who do not understand it properly make the informed choice about it? When we have one, I'll be able to comment on that _________________Finally joined Flickr
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| Thu May 05, 2011 7:49 am |
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ProfessorF
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:56 pm
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Dead easy - put the candidates in your order of preference. Write it down. Hand it in. It's not [LIFTED] rocket science.
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| Thu May 05, 2011 7:52 am |
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HeatherKay
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Location: Here, but not all there.
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Voting yes today will be the first tiny baby step toward that goal. Really, folks, don't let the no campaign make out it's so very hard to understand AV. If it's good enough for the MPs to elect their leaders, surely it's good enough for we plebs to vote for our MPs. _________________My Flickr | Snaptophobic BloggageHeather Kay: modelling details that matter. "Let my windows be open to receive new ideas but let me also be strong enough not to be blown away by them." - Mahatma Gandhi.
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| Thu May 05, 2011 7:54 am |
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bobbdobbs
I haven't seen my friends in so long
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:10 pm
Posts: 5490
Location: just behind you!
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Thats the simple bit, its the bit after that that it seems quite a few people have an issue with and if the Yes campaign cant explain it to them why it isnt so complicated then they have to expect a defeat. _________________Finally joined Flickr
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| Thu May 05, 2011 7:57 am |
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HeatherKay
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Location: Here, but not all there.
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*sigh* What's complicated about it? How many pages have we been through where it's been explained? We're intelligent people on this forum, so why is it so difficult to grasp the concept? _________________My Flickr | Snaptophobic BloggageHeather Kay: modelling details that matter. "Let my windows be open to receive new ideas but let me also be strong enough not to be blown away by them." - Mahatma Gandhi.
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| Thu May 05, 2011 8:00 am |
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HeatherKay
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:13 pm
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Location: Here, but not all there.
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You know what? [LIFTED] it! Go out and vote "NO" if you don't understand it. Fine. Spoil the one chance in maybe a century for ordinary voters to begin to make a difference to the way we are represented in the House of Commons.
AV is used in the Welsh and Northern Ireland Assembly, Scottish Parliament and London Mayoral elections. People seem to be able to cope with it there. I'm thoroughly fed up with the barrage of misinformation and downright lies that have been fed to us by the No2AV camp. They ought to be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. And the Yes2AV campaign, too, for being complete wet blankets about it.
We'll end up with no change, and continue to run general elections based on the votes of a few marginal constituencies.
I wash my hands of the whole thing.
(I'm still voting "yes", though.)
_________________My Flickr | Snaptophobic BloggageHeather Kay: modelling details that matter. "Let my windows be open to receive new ideas but let me also be strong enough not to be blown away by them." - Mahatma Gandhi.
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| Thu May 05, 2011 8:04 am |
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