No worries, when these riots are over the government will make a select committee of 50+ year old MPs which will investigate the causes of the riots and possible solutions in the future by interviewing a large number of middle aged men

Thats what usually happens, part of the problem is that most of these teenagers have never been consulted by the government/authorities in their lives. I seem to remember listening to a talk show a few years back where the host was discussing 'the problems and solutions' for the current British teenagers. Of course an 18 year old phoned up and got told he was too young to possibly have the intelligence to comment, therefore was hung up on. I don't doubt many rioters are out for the free plasma's, but they probably lack any respect for a state which has given them very little.




Assumes that they see being fed and watered for free for a few months a bad thing or not...

Not to be heartless, but if you're wearing full modern riot gear it actually takes quite a lot to injure you. You could easily take being whacked by a plank or having a stone thrown at you, it'd just bounce off. That's what the suit is there for. Plus it's fire and heat resistant, so unless you're actually set directly on fire (i.e. take a direct hit from a petrol device maybe) and/or don't have the help of other officers to put you out, you can stand being very close to burning wreckage. You could probably run through a fair sized fire and not be at all injured. It's also stab resistant.

The whole point of the gear is to allow the policeman to operate while under attack from the kind of 'improvised weapons' that an urban riot is likely to generate. Doesn't mean being hit by any of this stuff is fun, it isn't. It still hurts. But it can turn something which, if you were wearing normal clothes, would put you in hospital into something which leaves a nasty bruise.

Jon

This wasn't Matthew Wright by any chance was it ?

Wowser. So from the poll results and the comments it seems the feelings here are microcosmically the same as Facebook.

Here's my current status:



Let's just wait for someone to say the police need more funding and not cuts (if they haven't already). Then let's stand by and watch whilst a future generation of our society are further criminalised and disenfranchised. Finally, let's not address any of the issues at play here and let's continue to allow fear to drive public opinion (and therefore media coverage and government policy).

This makes me so angry for a number of reasons, but I'm not there and I can't do anything about it.

These young people have stumbled upon the truth. With enough numbers the police/government cannot touch you. Now if only they were educated, passionate and intelligent enough to use this power for good. I despair.

I dunno about anyone else, but the only ones I want criminalising are the ones who are trashing the place and nicking stuff. The ones running round causing mayhem are no more representative of 'a future generation' than, I dunno, the people who attend England football matches are representative of the whole country. They represent a tiny minority of the population : to wit, those who will use an excuse/take an opportunity to do things which harm others. And nobody else. Thankfully most of us aren't like that, be we 18 and black or 88 and white.


If you were there, what would you do about it? What could you do? You're no more likely to be able to stop a hundred rampaging idiots than anyone else is.


They've 'stumbled' into Currys and 'stumbled' back out again with a TV. Beyond that I suspect they have no conception of the wider context of their actions .


They caught the authorities on the hop and the police believed the public mood was not to be confrontational. I've heard interviews today from met office higher ups saying they have now got reinforcements in and will also be taking a more aggressive approach. I have a feeling quite a few people will be 'touched' all the way to hospital if they try the same stuff tonight. It doesn't matter how many you have, the state can always find a bigger stick. All that matters is whether it's prepared to wield it.


They aren't. Partly that's our fault and partly that's their fault. Wishing for the moon won't get you anywhere.


Well, at least in this we agree.

Jon

Which ever way you cut it, and whoever you listen to trying to justify it, ultimately they are carrying out acts of terrorism and should be dealt with accordingly.

Hmm. I just see rampant theft and arson. I don't see terrorism.

Still, everyone's entitled to their own point of view.

Were I there, I'd maybe have a conversation (or two), Jon. Like I am now.

Normally, I'm well aware that the carefully manipulated opinions of the British public are entirely beyond my ability to comprehend or change. Consequently, I ignore the tons of people on Facebook who display mindless tabloid-style rage in their status updates about a variety of issues. This time, I HAD to say something, because the whole situation makes me angry!

The rioters/looters don't know any better and have no concept of the consequences of their actions.
The police have no clue how to develop a dialogue with these people before these kinds of situations occur.
Somebody at the top is playing a blinder in getting more money for police despite the worst recession in a generation.
And we, the public, do not question it and are happy to forget that last week they told us the Euro was going to collapse and Apple had more spare cash than the US government.

WAKE THE [LIFTED] UP!!!!

They absolutely need to be brought to justice and shown the consequences of their actions, but we also need to look at the conditions that began this situation. EVERYONE is to blame, not just some mindless hoodies.

The United Kingdom's Terrorism Act 2000 defined terrorism as follows:

(1) In this Act "terrorism" means the use or threat of action where:

(a) the action falls within subsection (2),
(b) the use or threat is designed to influence the government or to intimidate the public or a section of the public and
(c) the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause.

(2) Action falls within this subsection if it:

(a) involves serious violence against a person,
(b) involves serious damage to property,
(c) endangers a person's life, other than that of the person committing the action,
(d) creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public or
(e) is designed seriously to interfere with or seriously to disrupt an electronic system.

It black people that is terrorism. White public school boys and it is a prank. I voted for find out the causes of the problems and deal with them. Bringing in the army or extra cops will not solve the cause just treat the symptoms of the problem, which is only ever a short term fix.

Apparently it's kicking off in Manchester now, quite near my daughters place of work. She's there now, and I'm still trying to find out if they are shutting up and going home.

I've already said to Mrs. V that I'll drive into town for her and if any "rioters" want to try and attack my car... well, let's just say it's made of metal. They are not.

IFIFY.

Let's not have a law brought in in the aftermath of September 11th by an opportunist government on a power grab as a substitute for common sense, eh? 'Terrorism' is an act of violence or destruction against a population or public with the aim of forwarding a political cause, predicating political change or promoting an ideology. The Madrid station bomb was terrorism. Blowing up the centre of Manchester in '96 was terrorism. The killing of athletes at the Berlin Olympics was terrorism. Kicking in Walthamstow Dixon's window with the object of half inching a bit of consumer electricals is not terrorism by any sensible definition and describing it as such is to disrespect the losses people have suffered to real, actual terrorism.


I appreciate your optimistic view, honestly, but I have no faith whatsoever that anyone would actually be listening to you under those circumstances.


I'd agree with the latter half of your statement, but not the former. I'm pretty sure they do 'know better', they just don't want to take the hard path to get there, when the easy path is presented in front of them. They know what they are doing is wrong. And there are people all around them who aren't doing what they are doing and they know why that is, they just don't care. They may be disadvantaged, they may be disenfranchised but they still have a choice. Every person who has stolen or rioted had a choice : To not do so. To stay at home, like millions of other Londoners did last night and the night before. Like the other people in their communities who are just as disadvantaged as them did. Each person bears responsibility for their own actions. And to suggest they don't is to validate their actions.


Not just the police I believe. There are many people in deprived areas of Britain working to try to help, to make things better. Some of them started off in those communities, were equally as disadvantaged or disenfranchised. The ones destroying shops and burning buildings, are they listening to those people either? Obviously not. Community leaders were out in Saturday telling people not to get involved in the lawlessness, that what they were doing was wrong. Patently, the people we see on TV did not listen. I don't think it's at all logical to heap blame for this on the police. The people doing this have a choice: Do it or not do it. Nobody can take that one, simple, single choice away from them and nobody can make it for them. They make it themselves. They patently are aware what they are doing is wrong and illegal, or why attempt to hide their appearance to stop them being identified? Yet they do it anyway. This is the choice they have made, and nobody has forced them to make it.


I have little doubt some people will take the opportunity to attempt to bring in more sweeping police powers or increased police funding. But you're honestly suggesting this whole thing is some right wing plot to hasten the arrival of a genuine police state? That's a bit tinfoil hat I'm afraid.


As a society, we all bear some blame for not doing enough to help those who are disadvantaged. We all bear some blame for our own.. shortsightedness and self interest. But I feel no responsibility for the idiots who were breaking into shops and stealing the contents. The fact is for every one person rioting, there are 100 people in identical circumstances who are not. That is by some dint of luck as much as judgement, but it remains true. The primary responsibility for a person's actions lies with themselves.

Jon

Can you be a bit more specific? I'm not in Manchester today but obviously many of my friends are...

Jon

The Arndale has been evacuated, and it's look iffy near the PrintWorks

Still getting information in dribs and drabs, and ignoring the facespace rumours until I can get verification.

I seem to remember watching his TV show once..... and only once.



I wonder what would happen if 3 people attacked your car with baseball bats/other weapons. Would you be justified in running them over (presumably not killing them ) or would you get more time than the yobs looting places...

Lots of talk on classifying the crimes, think the priority for the police now is to stop the violence.