http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/04/renewable_fail/

I wouldn't say it will cripple the economy, but it sure as hell doesn't seem to be helping much. I could personally do without the greenwash as we head towards another financial upset...

While I accept that the costs of renewables are still behind fossil fuels and that both technologies could improve still more the scope for fossil improvements are very small. Also fossil fuel supplied energy depends on a cost of carbon that is artificially low. If it were priced at its true cost the chances are that fossil fuels would probably already be far more expensive than either inefficient renewables and nuclear. I am not in favour of subsidies for green energy but I would prefer to see a carbon tax on fossil fuels that bore some semblance of the true costs of their impact on the environment. Higher energy prices would force everyone to be more efficient with their energy usage.


They are deliberately overlooking that because oil is currently in a bubble and will come down sooner or later.

The economy is completely arbitrary. It's all man-made make-believe. The environment and planet however, are very real and indispensable.

I know what you mean, but that's also exactly my gut reaction to the average green campaign - that's not to say we shouldn't aim for efficiency, I could just do without the BS circus around it

Well most of the greenwashing is by companies trying to get a better reputation. The coal industry is very guilty of that. Why do you think that they want renewables discredited? If the coal market was limited until they had an efficient carbon sequestration system in place they could have lost billions. By the time that technology is developed we could all be fried in 5 degree hotter UK. At which point we will definitely not be able to afford to implement it.

Erm, have they actually checked with the rest of the world? The German government and press are saying that green tech is the thing that is going to save the German economy.


Hmm, they are expecting explosive growth here. But after the Fukushima incident, they are also calling for the closing of nuclear plants and switching to renewable energy more quickly.

We've also had a couple of incidents here, with leaking nuclear waste being stored in hills in unsatisfactory conditions. The pressure to "go green" is very high here.


Aha, here is the thing... Germany is investing heavily in CREATING green tech, as opposed to just implementing it. Germany has some of the biggest manufacturers of wind turbines and solar cell panels (industrial). If the UK is just looking at installing green tech, as opposed to ramping up R&D and production, then yes, I can see that being a problem.

Putting my 'Devil's Advocate' hat on for a moment, the German government wouldn't possibly just be saying that because...



...would they?
It'd be a hard sell if they're investing in market that's likely to cause a contraction.



Production? We don't make things in the UK any more, don't forget.
In fact we won't even man the help line for the installers any more...

We don't make them anymore because of a lack of government direction. Germany has the right idea. They are developing the technology so they can become the world leaders in renewables. That will mean that they have an advantage when the rest of the world realises the need for renewables. Our policy is remarkably short sighted.

so we have to buy/purchase/manufacturer green energy from overseas
ho hum ...

And we turned down the opportunity to do it here.

You have assumed that Germany is actually investing in the right thing. Given that they need us to provide feed in tariffs to subsidise sales of their end product that doesn't seem sound at all. Perhaps they will make awesome solar panels that can compete on equal terms with other power generation, perhaps it can't actually be done, or perhaps it will be done by someone else and they will have to licence other people's tech rather than lead. The important thing is to realise that the scale of an R&D investment offers no guarantee of success.

The other thing to take into account is that it makes no sense to have multiple countries all competing to drive investment in the same field. If Germany and Japan and the US and Sweden, Holland, France and Spain are all subsidising investment in the same industrial sector, it is insane to pile in with them; they are all colluding to piss on their own market anyway. This thing always ends up the same way, every country has its flag carrier brand that must not fail, so there is always massive overcapacity, protectionism and, as with cars and airlines, the excessive involvement of too many governments is mostly counterproductive.

We are better off abandoning feed-in tariffs, when they get the tech right there will be no need, until then there is no point.

Last year Germany installed some 40% of the worlds production of Photo-voltaic cells. So I am pretty sure that they are using them as well as researching technologies.

So what? 40% of the world's PV cells produce what percentage of Germany's energy (somewhere between dick all and fcuk all). And at what cost (massive, considering the trivial quantities of electricity generated).
Are they anywhere near producing PV cells that can produce electricity without giant subsidies? No. If we pile in and do exactly the same thing will that improve matters... no.

I thought it was Spain not Germany using up all the solar panels by the way. Or did Spain run out of money to pump into that subsidy the year before, leaving Germany with a huge pile of unwanted panels on their hands?

Not that I care, it is cripplingly expensive and hugely wasteful no matter who does it. So I'm just glad it's not us.

Spain are using a reflection method of power generation AFAIK in a couple of locations. PV is still not particularly efficient at sub 20% efficiency still but if you combine it with efficient appliances it becomes a better option. I think that they use feed in tariffs for surplus power generated. Longer term solar will always be a marginal player until efficiency improves. It will eventually. Wind is effective but relatively low density power generation so not so good for cities. Don't forget the huge subsidy that fossil fuels get in the form of they do not pay anywhere near the fuel environmental costs of their use.

Yep, and if you install them on your house, you get a nice lump sum from the state to help cover the costs - although people were complaining that the grant sunk by 40% last year (they forgot to mention that the cost of the cells dropped by 60% over the last 5 years).