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Tolls or taxes? 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 3:29 pm
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rustybucket wrote:
Linux_User wrote:
Well you wouldn't get my vote, I don't see why roads should be funded through general taxation - I use public transport on purpose and would hate to see my taxes going to benefit those who drive. If anything we should be using general taxation to lower public transportation costs so that less people drive and more use public transport.

So you don't eat? You never receive any post? You only use trains? You never call a plumber, electrican or builder? You know for a fact that you'll never require a fire engine or ambulance?

Every person in this country uses the roads at least indirectly. So everybody should pay at least indrectly.

Hey if businesses want to use roads to do their job then they can pay to maintain them. I am, therefore, paying indirectly through their charges. I still don't need to reduce their costs through general taxation.

If I want to use the roads I'll pay road tax like everyone else. It's bad enough that my council tax goes towards road maintenance TBH.

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Thu May 17, 2012 11:07 pm
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Linux_User wrote:
If I want to use the roads I'll pay road tax like everyone else. It's bad enough that my council tax goes towards road maintenance TBH.

You already do use the roads. You should pay like everyone else.

Road Tax is regressive.

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Thu May 17, 2012 11:36 pm
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rustybucket wrote:
Linux_User wrote:
If I want to use the roads I'll pay road tax like everyone else. It's bad enough that my council tax goes towards road maintenance TBH.

You already do use the roads. You should pay like everyone else.

Road Tax is regressive.

So's VAT, you going to abolish that too?

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Thu May 17, 2012 11:50 pm
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Linux_User wrote:
rustybucket wrote:
Linux_User wrote:
If I want to use the roads I'll pay road tax like everyone else. It's bad enough that my council tax goes towards road maintenance TBH.

You already do use the roads. You should pay like everyone else.

Road Tax is regressive.

So's VAT, you going to abolish that too?

If I could, yes.

However that would require changes to EU legislation and an increase in income tax to compensate.

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Thu May 17, 2012 11:57 pm
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rustybucket wrote:
Here's my manifesto:

  • All roads to be funded through increased income tax
  • Fuel Duty scrapped and the difference funded through increased income tax
  • All sales of car engines and cars with an engine capacity over 1999cc subject to a 200% Unnecessarily Large Engine Tax
  • Introduction of a scheme where all purchasers of off-road vehicles have to obtain an Off-Road Vehicle Licence
  • Driving Licence entitlements flowing directly from the pre-1997 category B pass (C1, C1E, D1, D1E) to be revoked.
  • Holders of Category B restricted to 125 horsepower
  • Introduce Category B2 to allow up to 250 horsepower
  • Cars of more than 250 horsepower banned from UK roads
  • Mandatory Theory & Hazard Perception re-testing for all categories every 5 years
  • Mandatory Practical re-testing for all categories every 10 years
  • Mandatory GP Health check for all categories every 2 years
  • Mandatory Eye test for all categories every 3 years
  • Vehicle registration system to be changed to the German model
  • Introduction of a new tailgating offence of Failure to Maintain Safe Distance punishable by up to a maximum of 9 points and a £100,000 fine.
  • Introduction of a new tailgating offence of Aggravated Failure to Maintain Safe Distance punishable by unlimited fines, licence points or 2 years inprisonment
  • Introduction of a new Statutory limit on the number of traffic signals and road signs per hectare
  • Zero speeding tolerance on motorways and dual carriageways
  • Introduction of a minimum vehicle ride height of at least 100mm


I would agree if and only if those points pertaining to health tests, tests on road theory apply to all road users. That includes cyclists, mobility chair users, horse riders, horse-drawn vehicles, etc.. I also believe that any road user should be required to be insured. A cyclist can cause an accident, and can be held responsible for it legally, and so should have adequate cover.

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Fri May 18, 2012 9:09 am
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rustybucket wrote:
  • All roads to be funded through increased income tax

Disagree - what about those who do not drive, cycle etc? As others have said, road tax should be paid by whoever uses the road. If an ambulance needs to use the road, it can pay for it (which of course will be paid for indirectly through tax anyway)

rustybucket wrote:
  • Fuel Duty scrapped and the difference funded through increased income tax

Partly agree - certainly other countries have very little or no fuel duty. I would be happier if the fuel duty was actually used for some useful road-related purpose eg road safety

rustybucket wrote:
  • All sales of car engines and cars with an engine capacity over 1999cc subject to a 200% Unnecessarily Large Engine Tax

Disagree - a 2 litre engine may be fine in a small hatchback but in some larger vehicles, the vehicle may actually struggle if fully loaded (passengers and cargo) which IMO is more dangerous. You also run the risk of ruining smaller car companies like Lotus if no one wants to buy their car because of tax.

rustybucket wrote:
  • Introduction of a scheme where all purchasers of off-road vehicles have to obtain an Off-Road Vehicle Licence

Agree - vehicles designed or marketed for off-road should be capable as such. I think Clarkson tested a 4x4 off roader that was crap on the road and worse off it. The problem then becomes that they are market as SUVs or similar.

rustybucket wrote:
  • Driving Licence entitlements flowing directly from the pre-1997 category B pass (C1, C1E, D1, D1E) to be revoked.

No idea about this since I got my license in 2002. I think if you learned to drive a car, that's all you should be able to drive. Anything else requires its own license/permit. Exceptions could be made for one-off use.

rustybucket wrote:
  • Holders of Category B restricted to 125 horsepower
  • Introduce Category B2 to allow up to 250 horsepower
  • Cars of more than 250 horsepower banned from UK roads


I think I can see where you're going with this but basically disagree. You could have a probation period after passing your test for say twelve months where you can only drive a vehicle up to 125 bhp and it must not be modified. After that, freer reign. Having said that, insurance companies already load premiums and I doubt it would reduce them. As above, 250bhp depends on the vehicle. My Golf GTI ED30 came with 230bhp as standard and a simple remap knocked it to 300bhp. There's nothing wrong with that IMO. Similarly, some cars eg Ferraris, Lambos would be banned and IMO that's just feckin' ridiculous - you may as well ban all vehicles and make everyone walk everywhere and transport all their goods in a little pull-trolley.

rustybucket wrote:
  • Mandatory Theory & Hazard Perception re-testing for all categories every 5 years

Agree with this. It should be quick and simple. However, the system needs improving because there are times you spot hazards long before the computer allows you to press. A mate got caught out because he identified things too early.

rustybucket wrote:
  • Mandatory Practical re-testing for all categories every 10 years

Depends. Logistically may be impossible. Where would the funding come from? Unlike test centres with computers for Theory/Hazards, you'd need cars. Whose cars would they be? Would it be your own? Would it have to be the test centre's because of dual controls? What about unfamiliarity? How long would the test be? It can also be manipulated ie people take a few refresher lessions, past the re-test and then lapse back into poor driving habits.

rustybucket wrote:
  • Mandatory GP Health check for all categories every 2 years

Again this comes down to £££. What would the health check include? Who would fund it? Not every condition requires DVLA notificiation or restriction. Not all GPs may be able to carry out the health checks (depending on what they involved), in which case who funds the retraining and where does the money come from?

rustybucket wrote:
  • Mandatory Eye test for all categories every 3 years

Agree - fairly simple, and picks up a lot of things. Maybe something could be merged with the hazard perception test, so you get a suitable health check at the same time. But again, the details!

rustybucket wrote:
  • Vehicle registration system to be changed to the German model

I've just looked at the German system and it only seems to benefit those who stay in one place for a long time. If you move around place to place eg every year because of work/studies, it seems like unnecessary penalisation.

rustybucket wrote:
  • Introduction of a new tailgating offence of Failure to Maintain Safe Distance punishable by up to a maximum of 9 points and a £100,000 fine.

Agree but how would you enforce it?

rustybucket wrote:
  • Introduction of a new tailgating offence of Aggravated Failure to Maintain Safe Distance punishable by unlimited fines, licence points or 2 years inprisonment

Is this just repeat occurrences of the above?

rustybucket wrote:
  • Introduction of a new Statutory limit on the number of traffic signals and road signs per hectare

Agree - some places there are so many signs, as well as traffic, junctions - it can all be confusing if you've driven to a new place for the first time. All signs should be kept to a minimum.

rustybucket wrote:
  • Zero speeding tolerance on motorways and dual carriageways

In which case I'd argue to increase the speed limit given it is based on archaic rules. Vehicles are now much safer and capable of higher speeds. Lift the motorway limits to 100mph first.

rustybucket wrote:
  • Introduction of a minimum vehicle ride height of at least 100mm
[/list][/list]

Disagree - there's no reason why vehicles can't be low, especially if they have say air ride. What's your rationale for this?


All in all rusty, I'd not only disagree with you, I'd probably run you over in a low rider just to spite you. :lol:

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Fri May 18, 2012 10:42 am
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cloaked_wolf wrote:
Unlike test centres with computers for Theory/Hazards, you'd need cars. Whose cars would they be? Would it be your own? Would it have to be the test centre's because of dual controls? What about unfamiliarity?

I think the only requirement in terms of vehicles for taking a test is a second rear-view mirror that can be used by the assessor.

cloaked_wolf wrote:
It can also be manipulated ie people take a few refresher lessions, past the re-test and then lapse back into poor driving habits.

Personally I don't think this is really a manipulation. Sure, some people who intentionally drive badly/differently when not taking their test will still drive as they always do, but I reckon the vast majority of drivers would pick up one or two things that they didn't realise was poor about their driving, and if people take a refresher lesson in order to pass the test so be it. The whole point is ensuring that at the very least they remain aware of how to drive properly, and what their current performance is like.

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Fri May 18, 2012 12:16 pm
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