How do you work out that it's anti-competitive? If you have a Pre, not being able to use iTunes doesn't mean you can't use the features the Pre has to offer. You can still download tracks from other stores. I don't know if you can't sync the Pre with anything, but if you can't that's just a feature that the Pre doesn't come with.

I'm talking about forcing users of the naffPod and the iLimitedPhone to use iTunes in order to sync.

Not heard of MediaMonkey then?

Over the history of the web, Microsoft’s IE games have not stopped at making it the default browser. They engineered it so that it would break standards, and ensuring that the only way you would get the web properly is through using its software.

For example, when Netscape rolled out JavaScript, Microsoft didn’t support it, and then went for their own proprietary system - they called this DHTML. DHTML did not work in Netscape Navigator. You had to write two lumps of code - one for each browser. Even though IE today supports JavaSCript, ut’s been a long painful road before they saw sense.

Some web sites will still only work in IE, because of the way that they have been written, reliance of ActiveX, etc.. This is evidence of Microsoft trying to assume control of the Internet and web site, and by association, the desktop. You will recall the Internet Explorer for the Mac did not run ActiveX controls. This is one reason why Microsoft has been hauled in front of the beak on monopoly matters both sides of the Atlantic.

If you buy an iPod or an iPhone, the deal is that you use iTunes to sync your device. This seems fair to me - Apple supply both the hardware and the software, as well as the store. It’s the package. However, if you DON’T have an iPod or iPhone, but some other device, the chances are that you will be using the software that came with that to do your syncing.

However, what Palm has done is a spot of reverse engineering to trick iTunes into thinking the Pré is an iPod. I can imagine Apple would take a dim view of this, in much the same way it took a dim view of Real reverse engineering/bypassing the DRM on iTunes purchased music. Apple closed the gap, and I think Real didn’t really get their product up and running properly. Play this kind of game, and prepare to be burnt. This is not a game that Apple plays exclusively, by the way, as I mentioned earlier, Microsoft shifted the goal posts every time is looked like Netscape were encroaching on their patch.

Yet there are acceptable ways to sync your Pré through iTunes. It’s an extra hit on the wallet, but I really don’t know why Palm don’t just fund this project and bundle it.
http://www.markspace.com/products/pre/m ... rview.html

It’s less clandestine that their current strategy, and MarkSpace has been doing this for a very long time and so far don’t seem to have been shut out of anything. I used their products when I had an iPaq for a while. Seemed pretty solid, even though Windows Mobile was a dog to use.

And therein lies my problem with Apple. They are forcing you to use their proprietary software. It's a lock-in, pure and simple, which is anti-competitive.

I’m not convinced by that argument. There are alternatives to iTunes

http://www.jakeludington.com/ask_jake/2 ... layer.html

That's completely different. That's a product which people choose to go and buy, knowing that iTunes is part of the service package. Microsoft have been done in the past because people have bought an operating system, and Microsoft have forced Internet Explorer on people because they didn't want them to use an alternative. It's absolutely different.[/quote]

How? If you buy Windows you get IE, what's the difference? You accept that fact when you buy Windows, no one is forcing you to buy Windows. It's exactly the same.[/quote]

Because when you buy a PC, you get Windows whether you want it or not (until very recently when DELL backed Ubuntu).

PC = Windows = Internet Explorer

Media player = Lots of options = consumer chooses to use iTunes or not, by their choice of player.

You make it sound like it was imnpossible to buy a machine without Windows, which is crap, You could either get one with no OS, one with Linux or buy a Mac. If you didn't like Windows you could always remove it.

Apple are so paranoid about you using their software that they won't let you do something simple like use Windows Explorer to drag and drop files FFS. It's a proprietary lock-in, if there are alternatives it's because the tech. has been reverse-engineered, not because Apple believe in opening up their product.

I can't vouch for Windows here, but you can certainly drag and drop music files around on the Mac without using iTunes to do it. It must be possible to access the "proprietary" folder iTunes creates to organise the music you import.

Any WIndows users who suffer this proprietary lockin care to comment?

I can drag and drop files straight onto my MP4 player. It doesn't bitch about having to be synced through certain software.

Good. And as I understand others in this thread (and similar discussions we had in days of yore on the Old Place) you can do that on an iPod if you like. You can turn off the iTunes sync if you want. You can install Linux on your iPod if you like - I know someone who did just that.

So where are we going with this?

We're going for "Apple are just as bad as Microsoft for closed software and proprietary lock-ins".

Fair enough. You don't like Apple, and are entitled to your view.

You currently seem to be a lone voice. Perhaps you are the only one who can see the Emperor is naked.

*shrug*

To be honest I'm not really surprised that a bunch of Apple users disagree.

OI!

Don't make me....... erm....... get somebody else to separate you two.

The fact of the matter is that Apple have, whether one likes them or not, built up a remarkable ecosystem of software and hardware at the centre of which stand the iPod and iPhone. They have got a lot of money wound up in it.

Palm on the other are simply trying sell a rival to Apple's hardware whilst at the same time using a part of Apple's ecosystem. However what they haven't done is solve the central problem - that individual features no longer drive markets as they once did. Much more important these days are things such as ideology (e.g. Firefox vs. IE), customer experience (e.g. NTL vs. BT) and HW/SW ecosystems (e.g. iPod vs. Zune).

I personally don't think I'll ever buy either of these devices and have little or no sympathy for corporate protectionism. However I must say I have zero sympathy for Palm on this one. I don't feel sympathy for parasites in animals; I'm not about to start with parasites in cyberland.

[edited to add] I heartily suspect that this is just sabre-rattling on Apple's part in order to stamp authority on its IP.