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It's late, I'm 3 bottles of beer worse than I was earlier - but take a look at this.
The proposed EU definition of modified historic vehicles (such as the Imp, Mini and Minor) would outlaw the modifications being suggested here.
What muddies the water is the assertion that here in the UK, suddenly pre-'60 cars are all fine and don't need an MOT.
It's a complex area, a lot's changed since it first reared it's head, and my awareness of it comes from a more hot rod background than anything else. The potential was that if it went through as it was conceived, it would make running a hot rod, a special, or any older car modified to a modern standard 'unroadworthy', and kill the hobby.

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Thu May 02, 2013 9:41 pm
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As I read that, a vehicle of historic interest would be a car in its original form. There is nothing there to say that a modified car could be illegal, but that it could not claim that status.

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Thu May 02, 2013 11:06 pm
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The original proposal is here - http://ec.europa.eu/transport/doc/roadworthiness-package/com%282012%29380.pdf

What's also worth bearing in mind is the 8 point system, which says that:
www.dft.gov.uk/dvla/forms/~/media/pdf/leaflets/inf26.ashx wrote:
3. Vehicles that have been radically altered
This covers vehicles which are radically altered from their original specification, but which are not kit conversions.
In these cases, the vehicle components from the original vehicle will be given a number of points. To keep the original registration number, the vehicle must have eight or more points, which must include the original or new unmodified chassis or monocoque bodyshell.
If the vehicle has less than eight points, a second-hand or altered chassis, frame or monocoque bodyshell is used, the vehicle must have IVA, SVA or MSVA, whichever is appropriate, so that it can be registered. A ‘Q’ registration number will then be issued, (see section 7.)
The following points will be given to the original major components used.
n Chassis or monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) (original or new)* 5
n Suspension (front & back) 2
n Axles (both) 2
n Transmission 2
n Steering assembly 2
n Engine 1
*Direct replacement from the manufacturers


So, if you're in the position of either building, or buying, a modified older car which may not meet with the '8 point' system, you'd then have to submit the car for assessment as to it's roadworthiness, which is where the EU proposal could come into play and decide that as it's been modified from the original then the car's scrap.


It's all still a bit up in the air, but the potential is there.

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Thu May 02, 2013 11:36 pm
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That isn't what the proposal says. In fact the heavily modified part is UK proposed legislation and not mentioned in the EU document. Additionally, it says "to keep its original registration," not that it will be scrapped.

I read that, that if the vehicle is heavily modified, it can't use the original registration and a new document has to be drawn up, listing the changes, possibly not a "classic" number plate in the UK(?)

Take Germany, which already has this:
  • Trailers have always been tested, they get their own registration number and must be tested every 2 years, the same as all other road going vehicles
  • Cars being modified must use approved parts - parts have to be tested and approved by an independent body (TÜV) to ensure they are suitable for that vehicle and that they are roadworths (TÜV is a general testing body and is the equivalent of the "Kite Mark" in the UK, so you can only use "Kite Marked" replacement parts, which have been approved for your vehicle.
  • This makes getting tyres for older vehicles a pain, because they have to be approved by the manufacturer for your vehicle and certified by the TÜV. That means you are often stuck with the compounds that were available when the vehicle was still being sold.
  • Modifying a vehicle isn't a problem, you can do what you want, BUT the registration document needs to list all non-standard components (that doesn't mean that you have to record you are using a Halford's own brand headlight bulb, but it does mean if you replace the original headlight fitting for a Xenon unit, that has to be listed). The same goes for wider wheels etc. That means that the part of the registration document that has to be carried in the vehicle can be long!
  • Restoring classic vehicles isn't a problem, but if you replace an axle, for example, then it has to be to original design and / or approved. If an original is not available, you can get the custom made part approved, it just takes longer.
  • They are calling the call for yearly tests to be thrown out, as it is just "Geldmacherei" for the State (money making scheme) and inconveniences the owner and is too much of a burden for the testing centres. They want to keep the testing at 2 years.

Going back to the original topic, I always wanted the Stiletto variant.

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Fri May 03, 2013 4:09 am
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I'm looking, and not finding, so I think this might be going away. It first really reared it's head in 2010.
Lots of .pdfs and so forth have been taken down (FIVA's technical code from 2010 is here, but:

(Extract from FIVA’s regular update provided by its lobbying service, EPPA) Second meeting of the European Parliament Historic Vehicle Group
The second meeting of the European Parliament’s Historic Vehicle Group took place on 19 October in Strasbourg. During the meeting Horst Brüning, FIVA’s president and FBHVC’s Andrew Burt gave a presentation about the definition of a historic vehicle. They explained that a wide range of definitions are currently used in both EU and national laws and that ideally one common definition would be recognised by decision makers and in law. They then detailed the FIVA definition, explained its rationale and the importance of a definition allowing regulatory audiences to understand why historic vehicles should be treated differently to all other vehicles, especially to all other ‘older’ vehicles. Horst Brüning and Andrew Burt explained that the existing variety of definitions has not created any major practical problems to date, but that as legislation with exemptions for historic vehicles increases (which is likely because of the development of Intelligent Transport Systems and LEZs) there will be a heightened need for a common definition to avoid problems and make life simpler for owners, regulators and law enforcers in the future. They therefore urged the MEPs to help FIVA to promote and achieve a common definition for future use in EU legislation. The MEPs expressed their surprise at the current situation and agreed that they would aim to help FIVA in its objective."

Which means the FIVA definition of 'historic vehicle' would've been EU wide, which then means period mods only, historically correct and mostly parked.

Either way, given that there seems to be a lot of editing going on out there, and perhaps we've dodged a bullet.
The present UK MOT has been tightened up on one end for modern vehicles, but if you're driving something pre-'60 you don't need an MOT any more. It's inconsistent at best, but that's another issue.

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Fri May 03, 2013 7:11 am
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Good news!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/9758494/EU-backs-down-over-threat-to-classic-cars.html

Quote:
EU backs down over threat to classic cars
The European Commission has backed down over plans which would have seen owners of classic cars being forced to take them off the road if they had been modified in any way.
Stephen Hammond, the roads minister, secured the deal in Brussels after hearing representations from car enthusiasts.
The Commission had drawn up plans for a “roadworthiness test” directive which would have required all components on a car to conform with those on the vehicle when it was first registered.
According to the EU document the move was justified because “Vehicles of historic interest are supposed to conserve heritage of the époque they have been built”
But it was feared this would create havoc, especially given the number of carmakers who have disappeared over the last 50 years.
This would have hit owners of classic marques, such as Triumph, Wolseley and Sunbeam, which have long since disappeared – making spare parts almost impossible to find as a result.
The agreement means that UK testers will be given greater discretion to assess the roadworthiness of classic cars built after 1960. Historic vehicles built before that date are exempt from the MoT.
Mr Hammond has also persuaded the Commission to drop the requirement for more than one million caravans and trailers to undergo an MoT.
Had the EU pressed ahead with the original proposals it was feared this would cost Britain over £1 billion over five years. The modified version is likely to cost only £18 million.

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Fri May 03, 2013 6:24 pm
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