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£25 to see your GP? 
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The Independant
The ideal of an NHS free at the point of need was dealt a serious blow today, as a survey of family doctors revealed unprecedented levels of support for charging patients for routine appointments.

For the first time in recent memory, more than half of GPs believe patients should pay fees to see their doctor. The majority of those in favour said that charges should be between £5 and £25 per appointment.

Doctors say that patient demand has become unmanageable and warn that changes to GP contracts have heaped more work on them without increasing their funding. But patients said that GPs were threatening the “founding principles” of the NHS.

The survey, carried out by the GP trade magazine Pulse, found that 51 per cent of GPs supported fees. Many now believe that the charges, which would put off many patients from visiting unless they had a serious condition, are the only way to reduce their workloads.

Any call for fees would be fiercely opposed by patients and is a divisive subject within the medical profession.

Katherine Murphy, chief executive of the Patient’s Association said that GPs should not punish patients for problems in primary care.

“The NHS was founded on clinical need, not the need to pay and is meant to be free at the point of use. This survey seems to threaten those founding principles,” she said.

“We have already expressed concerns that the reforms to primary care introduced by the Health and Social Care Act would mean GPs spending less time with their patients and more time on bureaucracy.”

The Royal College of General Practitioners (RCGP), which opposes fees, warned its members of allowing “an American-style system” to take root, but said that the survey results reflected a profession “wilting under rapidly expanding workloads”.

Dr Helen Stokes, RCGP honorary treasurer said: “The solution lies with the Government sufficiently investing in general practices and rectifying the current situation where GPs conduct 90 per cent of NHS contacts [with patients] for 9 per cent of the NHS budget.”

The Department of Health said that it remained committed to an NHS “free at the point of use”. GPs could not begin charging fees without a major change to laws brought in with the establishment of the NHS.

However, an increasing number of NHS trusts are already charging patients for some services and at its conference last month, the British Medical Association called for a debate over which services the NHS could reasonably afford to offer for free.

Dr Chaand Nagpaul, chair of the BMA GP committee said that charging for routine visits to the doctor was not on the table.

“Charging patients to visit their GP would be a damaging and backward step that would undermine the very principles on which the NHS was founded,” he said. “All patients have a right to free healthcare and that is based on their clinical needs and it is right that this be protected. I would also be concerned that trust between patients and their GPs would be undermined. Many may also be put off coming to their local surgery when they might need care.”

The result of the survey, which polled 440 GPs, uncovered a profoundly frustrated profession, the editor of Pulse, Steve Nowottny, said.

“If GPs are backing this, it is likely they are doing so reluctantly,” he told The Independent. “They are seeing patients every day who perhaps they don’t need to see or who could be dealt with elsewhere in the health service, so they believe a small fee would discourage patients from attending unless they really needed to.”

“From what GPs have been telling us, what this really represents is not that they necessarily want to charge patients – most GPs are very committed to the NHS being free at the point of delivery. But there is a real feeling that patient demand is becoming unmanageable at the same time as GP workload has gone up. The new GP contract has ratcheted up pressure.”

In a similar poll last September, only 34 per cent of GPs said they would support charges.

Changes to the GP contract, introduced in April, required practices to sign up to providing extra services in order to receive their full funding package. Many GP practices are now taking a pay cut rather than adding the services, which doctors say make workloads unmanageable at a time when patient demand is rising. Under Andrew Lansley’s health reforms, GPs have also taken on an expanded commissioning role, with responsibility for local clinical commissioning groups (CCGs).

A Deloitte report last year concluded that the number of face-to-face consultations with GPs is likely to double in the next two decades, with 433 million consultations predicted annually.

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Last edited by cloaked_wolf on Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:31 am
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I'm completely against this for many reasons but I can see the logic behind it.

Too many people are seeing their GPs with minor coughs/colds that are self-limiting and do not require medical input. In the past, there would be some sort of "common sense" or even just older people who knew how to deal with common ailments. As a society, we have moved to the "me, me, me" phase where we want instant gratification and demand instant cures for minor ailments. To "wait it out" doesn't seem to be something that gets considered. Hence you get people coming in unnecessarily, reducing the number of appointments available for those who truly need it.

My reasons for being against it:

1. It alters the doctor-patient relationship. The patient is more likely to want to come away with something eg prescription to make it feel their worth for the appointment.
2. It may put off those with minor ailments but it may deter those with something more serious from coming in.
3. Who will pay? Will it be the small group of people who are actually working? The highest users tend to be children, or those over the age of 60. Given that these groups are exempt from a lot of things, would they too be exempt?
4. What happens if someone turns up but can't or doesn't want to pay? Do we turn them away? What are the legal ramifications if this happened?
5. If people have to pay to see their GP, it may push them towards A&E and walk-in centres, thereby increasing demand in those areas. Unless you start charging for A&E and WIC attendances. Which will push people towards ambulances.
6. It's the start of a potential avalance of privatisation of all NHS services and takes away the "free at the point of use" on which the NHS was built.

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Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:32 am
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So could we opt out of NHS and go private and get a reduction in our NI contribution and stop having to pay our portion of NHS costs? </sarcasm>

Seems to me just another tax?

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Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:35 am
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TBH this was just a survey amongst GPs. The idea isn't to generate more income but to stop DNAs (did not attend) and those with simple coughs/colds. At our surgery, before I came in, people struggled to get an appointment with a GP. Just before I came in, they expanded the appointments and with the addition of trainees, there are three times the number of appointments there were before. People are still complaining that they can't get an appointment.

What are your suggestions?

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Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:44 am
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I give you the opinion from someone from a socialised healthcare country who has paid for their healthcare most of their life:

In France you pay €30 to see the GP. €25 is refunded to you by the NHS at a late date, the rest is covered by private healthcare. Destitue people can be see for free through a separate scheme.

to be honest i have never had a problem with that. The queues at the doctors are small and you can usually get seen on the day.

However,
my brother has contracted a serious chronic health problem meaning that he needs xrays and injections every month and therefore has to pay out €200 a month for these. It gets refunded but he is often several hundred pounds out of pocket.

So really i'm in two minds about this.


Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:47 am
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I know a girl with a kidney infection who's been back and forward to her GP recently. She's got two kids and a part-time job, know what I mean? Dumb idea for all the reasons C_W stated.

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Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:49 am
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I don't see how charging people who do show up, above what they already pay in tax's for the privilege, will help stop people not showing up. How would you collect that money?

My main gripe is when you turn up for an appointment and
a) if first appointment of day the doc is 30 minutes late arriving. this happens regularly.
b) you have a later appointment and sit there for an hour waiting as the doctor is running late this happens regularly.

Unless its the emergency situation ( which can happen ) I don't see why the patient should have to suffer for the doctors tardiness ( either caused by the doctor or the system appointment durations ).

If I was being charged for an appointment then I would be expecting to be able to bill the doctor for my wasted time, without fear of being chucked off the practices list.</rant>

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Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:00 am
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Free at the point of use:

NHS Dentistry and Optical services.
Prescriptions.

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Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:03 am
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If they did bring it in, people would probably only go to drop-in centres instead - the end result being they'll get completely swamped.

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Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:11 am
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Oh, hello Mr Samuels. Glad toy could make it. Now we've had the results back, and it's not good news I'm afraid. It's terminal, and I expect you've only got a couple of months. Best to get your affairs in order.

Now if you could just pop your card into this machine and tap in your PIN....

.... There. Hmm it's a bit slow today. I expect the line's a bit busy. We've had a rush on today too. Lots of transactions to get through. We've been told it should be quicker when the line's had an upgrade. That will be in about 12 weeks. Damned waiting lists.


And so on.

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Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:41 am
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This would fundamentally change the psychology of the relationship between the doctor and patient. It would go from 'doctor' and 'patient' to 'service provider' and 'customer'. We've seen similar change in Higher Ed since student fees came in. Do you think someone whose paid 30 quid for the privilege is going to be happy sitting in a dingy waiting room on a plastic chair for 30 minutes after the time their appointment was supposed to be? Think again, and that's before they've even spoken to the person they're paying to see.

What will happen if this comes in is as follows : Initially, appointment requests will drop massively, completely washing out any possible analysis of change in DNA behaviour. Over time appointment rates will stabilise and come back up somewhat and DNA rates will be seen to be lower. At the same time, user satisfaction in Doctor's surgeries will plummet. People will be getting the same service as before, only now they're paying for it, and people are a lot more forward in complaining about things when they're seeing their money disappear for them than when they're paying through taxes, which the majority never actually see going out of their pay.

People are willing to put up with a degree of inconvenience or discomfort when they are getting something 'for free'. They're not when they pay for it. I'm amazed a group as supposedly intelligent as GPs can't figure this out. The net effect will be the next time the GPs need public support over whatever looney change UKGov decides to implement the response will be 'Yeah? Sod off.'

This is a perfect case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.


Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:51 am
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AlunD wrote:
b) you have a later appointment and sit there for an hour waiting as the doctor is running late this happens regularly.

Unless its the emergency situation ( which can happen ) I don't see why the patient should have to suffer for the doctors tardiness ( either caused by the doctor or the system appointment durations ).

The difficult thing in general practice is sorting things out in ten minutes. Sometimes I can sort things out in a few mins eg mole check, sometimes it can take me 45 mins (eg patient who has presented with depression for the first time). You cannot predict how long each thing will take. Having said that, 90% of the time I run bang on time. It does mean that if you came to talk about three things, I will deal with them in order of importance/significnce and if there's time left, I'll deal with what I can, otherwise come back another day.

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Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:29 pm
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jonbwfc wrote:
This would fundamentally change the psychology of the relationship between the doctor and patient. It would go from 'doctor' and 'patient' to 'service provider' and 'customer'.

And that's exactly one of the reasons why I'm against it. If someone still presented with a cold, they would expect a prescription or a sick note or something, despite not actually needing something. This is seen in Oz/NZ (can't recall which).

jonbwfc wrote:
At the same time, user satisfaction in Doctor's surgeries will plummet. People will be getting the same service as before, only now they're paying for it, and people are a lot more forward in complaining about things when they're seeing their money disappear for them than when they're paying through taxes, which the majority never actually see going out of their pay.

Depends on what happens and what the doctor-patient dynamic will be like. 10 minutes will not be enough to sort everything out yet they won't want to come back because they'll have to pay again.

jonbwfc wrote:
People are willing to put up with a degree of inconvenience or discomfort when they are getting something 'for free'.

TBH more and more people have become more and more demanding. That's part of the reason why General Practice is struggling. There's just not enough doctors, even in places where the pay rate is well above average - practices just can't recruit GPs. Couple that with a large number due to retire in the next couple of years and the problem's only going to get worse.

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Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:36 pm
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cloaked_wolf wrote:
Depends on what happens and what the doctor-patient dynamic will be like. 10 minutes will not be enough to sort everything out yet they won't want to come back because they'll have to pay again.

What you'll get is people sitting in your office demanding they have all their various issues addressed, because they've paid. The fundamental issue is in the 'power' of the relationship. As it stands, you might say the doctor is the dominant partner - if you were to say to someone 'OK, I'm really busy, can you book another appointment?' then they really don't have much ground to say no, because it's free so the 'cost' to them isn't too much. Once someone pays, they expect to be the dominant partner in any relationship. A certain percentage of them would happily say 'No, I've paid good money, we'll do this now thanks'. And then what can you do? Get security staff in to throw them out? As you say, some of the rest simply wouldn't bother coming back and you'd possibly end up with having to see them as an emergency. Plus you'll probably also get a lot more 'churn' of patients between surgeries in the area - people are used to moving providers for things like utilities and car insurance. If you make surgeries just another service provider, why shouldn't they do the same? Maybe that surgery over the other way will offer better 'value'. When I shifted surgeries last time I moved, there was a significant admin overhead to doing it. People aren't going to accept that if they pay, they way they didn't accept excuses when they wanted to change mobile phone providers and we now have PAC codes and etc.

This whole idea has so many negative consequences I honestly can't see why anyone would think it would be a go-er. This is trying to change the engine in a moving vehicle. They might want to have charging as a mechanism, but it's far too far down the line to implement it without opening a massive can filled with an almost infinite amount of worms.


Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:21 pm
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cloaked_wolf wrote:
The difficult thing in general practice is sorting things out in ten minutes. Sometimes I can sort things out in a few mins eg mole check, sometimes it can take me 45 mins (eg patient who has presented with depression for the first time). You cannot predict how long each thing will take.


I totally agree with you. So the powers at be should come up with an average time slot that works so that most of the time most appointments are on time or pretty close to on time ( exceptions granted ). I've been attending the same surgery for over 20 years and I can only recall a handful of appointments that have been within 10 minutes of on schedule. :roll:

cloaked_wolf wrote:
Having said that, 90% of the time I run bang on time.

So when can you join the practice I use? :D

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Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
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