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Lib Dems to push 'proud story' of achievements 
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Doesn't have much of a life

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jonbwfc wrote:
ShockWaffle wrote:
The NHS isn't being dismantled.

Many people disagree. Quite a lot of them work in the NHS. I trust their opinion over yours.

Nevertheless, they remain wrong. They can't tell the difference between insurance and provision, and neither can you or Amnesia10.

jonbwfc wrote:
Quote:
The bedroom tax would have been an ok idea if it wasn't implemented in advance of provision of the 1 bed places for which it will create demand (contrary to public perception I don't advise reliance on markets to fix everything in the universe).

And if your auntie had etc. It's not OK to force people out of their homes without an alternative and then say "Oh, yes, I see. We really should have thought of that. Sorry?"

You appear to be repeating my point while taking a shouty attitude. It's as if you are so blinded with rage as to have lost the capacity to read.

jonbwfc wrote:
Quote:
I would like to say that the ATOS claim sounds too stupid to be true, but I hear they do these sorts of thing so perhaps it is not

I've seen a photograph posted of the (verified) ATOS report that says something along the lines of 'Applicant has symptoms of cerebral palsy. Check again in six months to see if condition has cleared'. I'll try and dig it up.

I didn't deny. It sounds too stupid to be true, but I accept it probably is true anyway. We both know that lots of the claims they investigate do need to be investigated, and I'm sure we both agree that this should be done better.

jonbwfc wrote:
Quote:
It's unlikely that the Scandiwegians are twice as trustworthy as us,

Is it? Why? What's your justification for that statement exactly? I personally think it's feasible, given they haven't had the best part of thirty years of a society which has become so so self-interested and amoral that we end up with the likes of the LIBOR scandal, massive (billions of pounds massive) insurance mis-selling, the hillsborough cover-up... there are numerous examples. We trust less than the Scandanavians because as a nation have become less trustworthy. Our politicians have been shown to be venal, self-regarding swindlers and have led us into wars we do not wish to fight. Our financial leaders have been shown to be duplicitous criminals. Our police have been shown to have falsified evidence and maligned the dead and dying. Our faith leaders have been shown to have sheltered peadophiles. Our press have been shown to falsify evidence, destroy evidence, spy on innocent people... We are less trusting as a society because the parts that should be the pillars of our society have been repeatedly shown to operate in a way that says they can't be trusted. And they reflect on us.

I appreciate a good rant as much as the next man. But I don't understand where the 30 years thing comes from. The police fitted up the Birmingham six long before that. financial crime has a very long and excellent history. the behaviour of politicians has been scandalous since they came into existence. The tradition of sending perverted sons to a career in the church is old as the hills, and the gutter press have been beacons of moral turpitude forever.

They do also have scandals abroad by the way. Including paedo priests, dodgy cops, corruption and so on.

jonbwfc wrote:
ShockWaffle wrote:
Many of the policies you hate so much (especially the ones involving private sector involvement in public services) are Scandinavian imports.

Not really. All the Scandanavian countries have nationalised health care, rather than 'health care providers' in the private sector paid for out of taxation. They also all run what is called the 'Ghent system' of social benefits which is a fixed benefit without requirement for assessment. Our systems are in fact becoming much more like America's. This doesn't actually surprise me much, one of the constant political factors since, well, since I was child has been that politicians have looked across the atlantic for policy pointers. This may be because they are more euro-sceptic than me, or it may be that the American ethos fits more with their way of thinking.
Not that we're talking 'Europe Good, America bad' in a dogmatic kind of way. But the simple truth is that you're going to have a much worse time in the US than in a lot of Europe if you're poor or disadvantaged. And, as the old adage goes, the true measure of a society is how it treats it's weakest.


Wrong
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2012 ... rom-sweden
The Guardian wrote:
Despite its reputation as a leftwing utopia, Sweden is now a laboratory for rightwing radicalism. Over the past 15 years a coalition of liberals and conservatives has brought in for-profit free schools in education, has sliced welfare to pay off the deficit and has privatised large parts of the health service.


Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:17 am
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ShockWaffle wrote:
jonbwfc wrote:
ShockWaffle wrote:
The NHS isn't being dismantled.

Many people disagree. Quite a lot of them work in the NHS. I trust their opinion over yours.

Nevertheless, they remain wrong.

Yeah, that's about as far as I want to take this discussion thanks.


Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:35 am
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Doesn't have much of a life

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Ragequit!


Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:45 am
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More recognition of the futility of discussing with someone who thinks they know a situation they aren't involved in better than the people who are experiencing it every day.


Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:45 pm
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Oh come on. We both know you've bailed because you were [LIFTED] about Swedish healthcare and you are annoyed about getting called on it.


Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:51 pm
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ShockWaffle wrote:
Oh come on. We both know you've bailed because you were [LIFTED] about Swedish healthcare and you are annoyed about getting called on it.

Yeah, OK, whatever you like. Go buy yourself a milkshake to celebrate.


Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:55 pm
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It's just like my annual Christmas victory over the self basting turkey.


Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:42 pm
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All infants in England to get free school lunches

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24132416

Quote:
But Labour said the Lib Dems could not be trusted to deliver.


:lol: :)

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Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:30 pm
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On the final day of their annual conference, all but one delegate voted for the motion after the Home Office minister Jeremy Browne condemned schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act 2000 as "too broad and overbearing".

...

The Terrorism Act, introduced a year before 9/11 to crack down on dissident Irish republican terrorists, gives police the powers to detain an individual at a port or an airport even if they have no grounds for suspicion. Police then have to question the detainee to assess whether they are involved in the commission, preparation or instigation of terrorism.

In his speech on Wednesday, Browne said it was right that the police could stop and interview people at ports and airports. But he said the government would make substantial amendments to the act – drawn up before the detention of Miranda – to move the legislation "decisively in a liberal direction".

Browne said the changes include a reduction in the maximum period of detainment from nine hours to six, extending the right to consult privately with a solicitor, the extension of the right to have a person informed of their detention and the repeal of the power to take an intimate sample.


http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ism-powers

The right to silence thing I'd question (that's an IRA favourite historically), but I can't see how you can justify the rest above without even reasonable suspicion, never mind evidence.

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Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:05 pm
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Put us back in government in 2015, Nick Clegg says

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24137394

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Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:21 pm
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Liberal Democrat minister rues party's record on female MPs

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -women-mps

There's a 'disproportionate' amount of women in my workplace - nobody gives a crap because it makes no difference!

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Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:15 pm
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ShockWaffle wrote:
jonbwfc wrote:
ShockWaffle wrote:
The NHS isn't being dismantled.

Many people disagree. Quite a lot of them work in the NHS. I trust their opinion over yours.

Nevertheless, they remain wrong. They can't tell the difference between insurance and provision, and neither can you or Amnesia10.


If you cannot see that the Conservatives are doing their utmost to wreck the NHS to then make the argument for privatisation easier, then you're more moronic than you even come across on here.

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Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:18 am
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rustybucket wrote:
jonbwfc wrote:
The point about the Nordic countries is not that their politics is collaborative whereas ours is adversarial, it's that their politicians (of whatever shade) seem to have retained some level of the notion of public duty and the necessity of the common good. They are, in essence, civilised. Ours apparently are not.

I would first ask the question 'Was there ever a time when politicians were civilized?' I can't help but think that the idea of a benvolent, representative, civic-minded legislature is now, and always was, a myth.

But, assuming that a civilized political establishment did once exist, the question I would ask is which way the causality runs. The last time I looked, neither the press nor the general populace have managed to steer free of cynicism - I'm guilty of more than my fair share of it to be honest. If I were a politician, and everyone automatically assumed that everything I ever said was a lie, why would I bother telling the truth? If I were a politician, and I knew that it is rarely the colorful character that wins, would I not refrain from being colourful? If implausible, is it not at least possible that the current state of politics is the result of society's cynicism, rather than the cause of it?

I just think it's too easy to blame politicians for everything. In truth, a pessimistic part of me says that we have exactly the parliament that we deserve.

I think one problem is that multinational companies now wield more power than countries do, in a lot of areas - most aren't bankrupt, unlike most countries, at least not financially. That give the politicians a glimpse of the futility of what they are doing and when a multinational offers them a bigger pension than the state they are "serving" could ever dream of, it must be pretty tempting for many.

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Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:11 am
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ShockWaffle wrote:
jonbwfc wrote:
The point about the Nordic countries is not that their politics is collaborative whereas ours is adversarial, it's that their politicians (of whatever shade) seem to have retained some level of the notion of public duty and the necessity of the common good. They are, in essence, civilised. Ours apparently are not.


Below is a chart of interpersonal trust, showing what proportion of people are willing to assume others are trustworthy.
It's unlikely that the Scandiwegians are twice as trustworthy as us, but they are much more trusting.
Our politicians are mostly there because they want to do good. The grassroots organizations that assist them are largely composed of honest and decent people who only want to assist honest and decent politicians in the doing of good work.
Many of the policies you hate so much (especially the ones involving private sector involvement in public services) are Scandinavian imports.
The Scandinavian politicians were able to explain these policies to both left and right wing voters and secure consent for them. Ours seem to be up against a barrier.


Image

It is certainly the case that Germany seems to be much more trusting than modern Britain.

As I've said elsewhere, here in Germany it is still relatively common for people not to worry about locking the house if they pop out to the shops. Bikes stand outside in the garden unlocked, people don't lock their garages - heck, I have one friend who leaves his garage unlocked and the keys in his motorbikes and his friends can turn up and go for a spin, if they want to.

Where I lived in the UK, it was like that before I left at the end of the 90s. If I forgot to close the car windows when I got home, a neighbour would ring on the doorbell the next day and let me know. Now, if the car is left on the road over night, then they have to expect that the aerial is broken off or tyres slashed, if nothing worse, before they get up in the morning.

My old neighbours have had their garden and the garden furniture destroyed on several occasions now. They are thinking of moving to South Africa to be near a cousin.

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Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:19 am
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jonlumb wrote:
If you cannot see that the Conservatives are doing their utmost to wreck the NHS to then make the argument for privatisation easier, then you're more moronic than you even come across on here.

Privatisation of what? Insurance or provision. If you mean the former, then they are clearly doing no such thing.
If you talk of adding private service providers into the mix along with public sector ones, then so what? It's good enough for Germany, France and Sweden, why would it be so terrible here?

The American system is defined by its lack of national health insurance, which is unusual and financially illogical. It imposes a huge cost burden by inefficiently spreading risk (which is what insurance is for - and Obamacare's main provision is an attempt to redress that failing). Outside of that country, their current system of provision is recognised by both conservatives (including ours) and progressives to be a bad choice. Which is why I can safely claim that we are not Americanising.

If I come across as moronic to you, that is your error. I can explain and justify all of my claims. Whether we do that in a constructive spirit, with you asking me to explain and justify claims that you find implausible, or just throw cheap insults around is for you to decide.


Last edited by ShockWaffle on Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:31 pm
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