My fiancé had her 2 daughters as a teenager. Both are now grown up and moving out, or back in and out...

The daughters aren't looking to start a family any time soon. Both have done or are doing an apprenticeship and the eldest will start studying to be a nursing teacher in the autumn semester this year.

I think it should be up to them to decide when they want to have a family. My fiancé had children too early, the man she was with wasn't ready for the responsibility.

I think that is more of a problem, whether the women are ready or not, the men often aren't and they often have to cope on their own.

I don't believe Kirstie is talking about studying AND working AND raising a family, I don't know what the percentage of young parents is who are doing all 3 but I bet the majority aren't doing it without some form of support. Also, she did mention men, she suggested quite explicitly that she would advise her daughter to get a job and be financially stable (not reliant on a sugar daddy) and then find a nice man and settle down.

She also didn't suggest that it should be based on enticing, she's talking about people properly debating whether they want to set up in long term relationships and raise a family before they embark on a career or study (which is a valid choice for anyone) or whether they would rather get on with the career and house etc right away. There is a lot of pressure on young people to go to university, study as long as they can, or for as long as they can afford to and nobody ever comes out and says "look, if you'd rather get a job, settle down with someone and raise a family, that's ok too"

All the article seems to be trying to do is start a conversation. Whilst it is possible that not all older people have the ability to study, it's also true that not all young people suit university and an academic route forward, it's possible that for some people studying after they turn 30 isn't the way forward, but the basis of the conversation is around fertility, which in the majority of cases (and scientifically shown) *definitely does* fall off a cliff after women are 35. Nobody has said it's the only way, nobody has suggested it's entirely the woman's decision, clearly you need a man to get the process going, in some form or another, it is however also true that not all young people (whether male or female) are emotionally stable enough to settle down and raise a family, many are though and they may be feeling the pressure of the route to uni whether that's what they want or not.

I applaude her for saying it, I just wish people could still have an opinion in this country, which differs from that of other people, without it being a massive deal. The above is all just my opinion, I'm still allowed to have one and express it, nobody has to agree, but that doesn't invalidate my right to have it.

You do realise that working a few years at an entry level job will not making anyone financially stable and they will have to rely on someone else for food and shelter? That on £17k a year in London in particular but also in a lot of the UK, you will never, ever, ever be able to afford your own place and be "secure"?
And if her daughter never meets the "nice man", she'll settle for 2nd best, or just have wasted her whole youth in an unsatisfying dead end job with little to show for it?

The career and family argument is a very upper class thing to do. Most people have no choice. It is either work a low wage job and scrape by, go to uni and get a slightly better paying job that's more mentally fulfilling. In the current economic climate, families are not an option if you don't come from money.

Camille I think you're missing the point of what Amy and I are trying to say. I think you're taking this too personally.

I left school at 18, got a job and supported myself. Not everyone that doesn't go to uni ends up in a low waged job and not everyone that goes to uni and ends up in a well paid job. Just like you don't HAVE to puchase a property to be secure. In Germany the majority of people rent.

Career and family is not upper class. It affects all kinds of people. You can't make generalisations as everyone's life is different. There is a lot of pressure for people to do things in a certain order but it doesn't have to be that order. This is just a discussion after all.

As someone 20 years older than you I look back and yes I might have done things differently but this is the life I have, without kids. I have a lot of joy in my life and some sadness, ups and downs like anyone else. You have to make the most of it.

Kirstie isn't a bad woman. You may think "oh she's got it all" and what she's saying is an insult to you but I bet she's had struggles and problems in her life too. She's just been fortunate to be successful at what she does so she's in the public eye and she's not scared to raise issues that not everyone will agree with. Good for her for having a voice and not being scared to use it!

In Germany, the rental contracts are significantly longer. Would you be happy having a child in rented accommodation when you may have to move as often as every 6 months? I have seen my rent go up by 30% in one year for a room in a shared house, do you think parents could cope with that kind of uncertainty?


But that's my point. You got a JOB. Despite what you say, women are not typically pushed into high achieving careers that require dedication. Trying to achieve something good while your mother nags for grandkids is not helpful.
I agree that for a lot of people, uni is not the answer and, apart from the social side, they did not gain much out of it, but they are not the people who are having the real issues. It's fairly easy to drop in and out of a job to have kids, more less so when you are involved in a long term project, regardless if you went to uni or not, which is why a lot of women get stuck doing admin or HR.

Also. no offence, but the economic situation has changed rather a lot in the last 20 years. You had opportunities then that no young 18 year old has these days (100 -125% mortgages, lower rents, relatively higher wages)

Whatever! We're clearly not agreeing and life is too short to sit her replying to every little nit-picky point you raise in the effort to win an argument nobody is having. Life wasn't 'easier' 20 years ago, it was just different an in some ways we're still paying the price now. We've been living in long-term rental for the last 16 years with no issue. At the end of the day, it's an opinion, just that, nothing more and she's entitled to have one and express it, as are you, as is Carolyn, but if you're going to continue to ignore the bigger picture then I'm done.

I'm not gong to get in to all of this now but you were not there 20 years ago! I did not get 100% mortgage. I was paying rent and living on my own at 18. I was putting cash in to envlopes for food, petrol and toiletries so I'd have enough to last the month. I was staying in a lot when my friends were out partying.

Every young person has struggles Camille. My Mother was a child during the war. She managed to get a job, support herself all her life and leave her daughter a good inheritance when she died because she was frugal with money and saved all her life.

My Grandmother ran her own hotel and restaurant in Belgium while she was raising 5 children. She had to abandon it all during the war, get on a fishing boat in the middle of the night and come to England. You think it was easy for her too?

My Dad didn't go to uni but had a good job and supported his family. He went on to study with Open Universite and got his degree later in life and graduated in his 50s.

Nothing is black and white. Try and see the bigger picture.

Now I'm walking away as life is too short.

Life is too short Amy

Now for a cup of tea methinks

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