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MrStevenRogers wrote:
religion should go the way of the dinosaur thereby completely eradicated from the planet
all religions and its followers supposedly communicate with their 'invisible friend'
in any other walk of life this type of communication would get you locked up …



Change "eradicate" to "convince people to change their minds by ethical/scientific argument" and I agree. The USSR tried eradicating religion, and just like a bad virus it got even stronger and morphed into even more powerful, orthodox forms.

We have to remember that a religion is a meme; without wilful propagation by individuals, it will die. Trying to force religion underground ends up with ridiculous situations such as this morning's "The Big Questions", where Christians end up feeling perscuted and it strengthens their will.

I was convinced by scientific argument into the position I am in now, so it's possible for anyone. Once we can reduce religion down to an individual choice of belief, rather than dogmatically following everything the local temple says, then we can work on an individual basis to encourage and enthuse people away from simple 'belief' and into 'knowledge'.

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Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:51 am
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In my experience most "Christians" have neither read the Bible nor follow its teachings - they follow the bits they like and ignore the bits they didn't (esp. with regards to extra-marital/pre-marital sex!). Also in my experience Christians use their book and their religion to try and force their own moral code on other people (thou shall not kisseth another human being in my presence! ARGGGGGGGGGGGGH!!" etc).

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Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:57 am
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F_A_F wrote:
MrStevenRogers wrote:
religion should go the way of the dinosaur thereby completely eradicated from the planet
all religions and its followers supposedly communicate with their 'invisible friend'
in any other walk of life this type of communication would get you locked up …



Change "eradicate" to "convince people to change their minds by ethical/scientific argument" and I agree. The USSR tried eradicating religion, and just like a bad virus it got even stronger and morphed into even more powerful, orthodox forms.

We have to remember that a religion is a meme; without wilful propagation by individuals, it will die. Trying to force religion underground ends up with ridiculous situations such as this morning's "The Big Questions", where Christians end up feeling perscuted and it strengthens their will.

I was convinced by scientific argument into the position I am in now, so it's possible for anyone. Once we can reduce religion down to an individual choice of belief, rather than dogmatically following everything the local temple says, then we can work on an individual basis to encourage and enthuse people away from simple 'belief' and into 'knowledge'.


+1, anything else is just publicity for them :)

The kids of tomorrow will have little reason to accept religion I reckon, unless it's corporate :oops:

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Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:02 pm
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Interesting related piece from Aunty:

Knowledge of Bible 'in decline'

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Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:30 pm
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Linux_User wrote:
Interesting related piece from Aunty:

Knowledge of Bible 'in decline'


Cheers for that. It's not what some people wanna hear, but it makes me hopeful :)

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Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:43 pm
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paulzolo wrote:
OooooKaaaay - what’s a “kosher telephone”?


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 417509.ece

Basically, it's one restricted to reduce temptations.

Gotta love some of the rules:

Quote:
The completion of an electrical circuit is considered “building” and thus disallowed, prompting many ingenious measures to allow Jews to use devices on the Sabbath. Shabbat lifts, for example, come unbidden and halt at every floor, so that the users do not have to press any buttons.

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Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:36 pm
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F_A_F wrote:
Ok, I'm gonna need a north-Londoner to comment on this one. A guy I work with used to live near Hampstead Heath (no jokes please, he's sick of them!) and married into a Golder's Green Jewish family, and he says this is a true story:

Apparently, it's against temple rules to drive to temple on the sabbath, so the temple "elders"/community got in touch with the local council. Apparently, there is something in a jewish religious rule that says if you mark out an area with wire, anything within that area counts as "ok" and not work on the sabbath, so the communtiy paid thousands to have the council mark out an area, lampost by lampost, in which it's "ok" to drive to temple on the sabbath.......sounds like an urban legend to me, but he swears it's true :)


It’s true.

There was quite a fuss about it too - the usual suspects coming out of the woodwork and spouting their nonsense.

It’s called an Eruv.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv

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Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:15 pm
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"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

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Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:54 pm
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paulzolo wrote:
It’s true.

There was quite a fuss about it too - the usual suspects coming out of the woodwork and spouting their nonsense.

It’s called an Eruv.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv



Hmm, so what you could do is make a small circle of wire about 1 inch in diameter. Then propose that the wire actually creates a community of everything on the exterior circumference of the wire, with only the tiny area of space inside the circle as a seperate community.....thus making only 2 communities on the face of the earth!

I should market this idea and make millions :D

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Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:10 pm
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F_A_F wrote:
paulzolo wrote:
It’s true.

There was quite a fuss about it too - the usual suspects coming out of the woodwork and spouting their nonsense.

It’s called an Eruv.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv



Hmm, so what you could do is make a small circle of wire about 1 inch in diameter. Then propose that the wire actually creates a community of everything on the exterior circumference of the wire, with only the tiny area of space inside the circle as a seperate community.....thus making only 2 communities on the face of the earth!

I should market this idea and make millions :D


A farmer inquired of 3 educated people; "What is the best way to enclose the maximum area of land with the smallest amount of fencing?"

The architect drew a square.
The scientist drew a circle
The mathematician took the scientist's drawing, and within the circle wrote the word "outside".

(c) very old jokes from before you were born :lol:

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Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:41 pm
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F_A_F wrote:
We have to remember that a religion is a meme; without wilful propagation by individuals, it will die.


I don't think that's correct. In fact, I think as a species, we're predisposed to a belief in an 'Other', a 'Creator', and it's got nothing to do with explaining how the universe works.
You'll never eradicate faith in an creator, a spirit, a God, or what have you. As you said, the Russians failed spectacularly, the Chinese aren't doing so great at it either, and there are plenty of religious people doing amazing work in the Sciences. The two are not exclusive.

I think it's always good to bear in mind the words of Charles Hoy Fort -
I can conceive of nothing, in religion, science or philosophy, that is anything more than the proper thing to wear, for a while.

So, your scientific 'truths' may not the true in the future, just as the beliefs of a tribe in the Amazon about a rain god might not be true either. In many ways, the two are amazingly similar, there is a dependence on the credulity of the masses to believe what they're told.

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Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:35 am
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While I completely agree that it's true a lot of science has/will prove to be false, I also think that it's science that will take more hold in the general scheme of things.

I think future space missions, the terraforming of islands, evolutionary fossils etc are all gonna lead future generations to trust more in what we think we know/understand in the here and now than what's been alleged with religion, if you wanna put it that way.

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Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:50 am
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pcernie wrote:
I think future space missions, the terraforming of islands, evolutionary fossils etc are all gonna lead future generations to trust more in what we think we know/understand in the here and now than what's been alleged with religion, if you wanna put it that way.


Perhaps the best way of looking at it is to consider what the purpose of religion is, in the life of someone who believes. What do they get out of the experience.
Now consider whether science can take it's place.

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Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:06 pm
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ProfessorF wrote:
pcernie wrote:
I think future space missions, the terraforming of islands, evolutionary fossils etc are all gonna lead future generations to trust more in what we think we know/understand in the here and now than what's been alleged with religion, if you wanna put it that way.


Perhaps the best way of looking at it is to consider what the purpose of religion is, in the life of someone who believes. What do they get out of the experience.
Now consider whether science can take it's place.


The purpose of religion seems to be making people feel better about going to sleep for a very long time and becoming a skeleton.

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Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:07 pm
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Linux_User wrote:
The purpose of religion seems to be making people feel better about going to sleep for a very long time and becoming a skeleton.


Perhaps, so does the scientific knowledge of the process of decomposition and chemistry that'll go on make them feel better about things?
Of course not. Does having a faith in there being something beyond this existence help them? I'd say yes.
Look at it this way - for many, it's an opportunity to make a quiet time and find a space within themselves to ignore the day to day existence and try to find an experience in the liminal.
As much as you think education is the answer, that need in some people isn't going to salved by science.

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Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:11 pm
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