Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 
Doctors write 10m needless antibiotics prescriptions a year 
Author Message
What's a life?
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm
Posts: 10022
Reply with quote
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/aug/18/soft-touch-doctors-write-10m-needless-prescriptions-a-year-says-nice
Quote:
About one in four prescriptions issued for antibiotics in England each year – about 10m in all – are likely to be unnecessary as patients deliberately look for “soft-touch” doctors who give in to their demands for the medicines, a leading health official has said. Mark Baker, director of clinical practice at the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (Nice), has warned that the growing crisis of antimicrobial resistance, in which profligate use of drugs has allowed bacteria to develop resistance, threatened healthcare and the “whole basis of medicine”. He also said infections would have to be treated by surgery if drugs no longer worked.

Baker is director of clinical practice at the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (Nice), whichNice on Tuesday published guidance on the issue for doctors, dentists, podiatrists, pharmacists and other professionals. Expectations of getting antibiotics were now “entrenched”, said Baker. “There are people who are addicted to the idea of having antibiotics. If they know there is a soft-touch doctor then they go to them.” If they did not succeed with one doctor, they would try another or even search the internet to source the medicines, he said.

Unless the latest guidance was translated into action, he said there would have to be a rethink in practice “because we have spent 60 years assuming that most infections will be cured by antibiotic drugs”. If these no longer worked, said Baker, “then we will have to rediscover and relearn how to treat infections surgically and I don’t think anyone wants to be in that position”.

The guidance calls for prescribers to discuss with patients the likely nature of their condition, the benefits and harms of immediate prescribing, and options such as “watchful waiting” or delayed prescribing, when prescriptions are issued only after microbial samples taken from patients have been tested. It demands more rigorous local policing of prescribing practice, with expert teams monitoring and comparing data from different hospitals, GP practices and other prescribers. Instances of very high, increasing or low volumes of prescribing should be examined.

Baker said an open and transparent culture should allow health professionals to question colleagues’ prescribing practices when they were not in line with local or national guidelines and no reasons were given for those decisions. There was a lot of very good practice, said Baker, but examples of bad practice might, as a last option, be referred to professional regulators such as the General Medical Council (GMC).

Tim Ballard, vice-chair of the Royal College of GPs, said the guidance “to provide the right antibiotic at the right dose at the right time” was sensible. “But we can come under enormous pressure from patients to prescribe antibiotics, even when we know they are not the right course of action. People must realise that this is dangerous for each and everyone of us, not just ‘other people’.” He said it might be counterproductive and unhelpful to involve disciplinary procedures when GPs already faced “very difficult and stressful conversations” with patients.

The college would be looking to regulators to support GPs who refused to prescribe unnecessary antibiotics and then faced complaints from patients. Separate guidance for patients, possibly backed up by NHS public education campaigns, is expected next year. The Department of Health said: “Tackling the overuse of antibiotics is a global issue that affects everyone – government, patients, doctors, dentists and vets treating animals – not just GPs.

“In order to make sure we have effective antibiotics for generations to come, we are raising global awareness of the dangers of resistance to antibiotics and providing tools for GPs to support prescribing decisions.”

Niall Dickson, chief executive of the GMC, said doctors should only prescribe if they were satisfied that this would serve the patient’s needs.
“Where they consider that the treatment would not benefit the patient, they do not have to provide it.”

However, the GMC saw the Nice guidelines as “being more about changing the norms of practice generally than pursuing individual doctors”. The dangers of antibiotic resistance first became a major issue in the UK in the late 1990s when they were raised by Sir Liam Donaldson, the then chief medical officer. His successor, Dame Sally Davies, took up the cudgels in 2013, with David Cameron calling for global action the following year.

Experts fear the crisis is deepening, with no new class of antibiotics or other major scientific development in 30 years. A total of 41.6m prescriptions were issued in England in 2013-14, costing the NHS £192m. Previous Nice guidance on the use of antibiotics to treat respiratory tract infections, issued in 2007, was aimed at cutting prescribing by 22%. After an initial dip, it began to increase again.

A survey last year suggested more than a quarter of doctors prescribed antibiotics even when they were not sure they were medically necessary, and nine in 10 felt under pressure from patients to prescribe them. Other figures suggest nearly all patients who ask for antibiotics get them.

_________________
Image
He fights for the users.


Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:04 am
Profile
Officially Mrs saspro
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:55 pm
Posts: 4955
Location: on the naughty step
Reply with quote
I think the UK is pretty good in that regard. There needs to be a concerted international approach as there's a lot of countries out there where doctors prescribe antibiotics on the first morning of a sore throat :s ( looking at you Italy!)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:10 am
Profile WWW
What's a life?
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm
Posts: 10022
Reply with quote
I've posted my thoughts about this previously:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=21880
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=18164
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=17651

There's so many factors at play here, you can't blame just one group.

  • There's this whole anti-GP vibe going on over the last few years, including vilification of GPs for doing or not doing various things (which at times counter each other). It has demoralised the profession, more doctors are leaving general practice, emigrating or retiring and is making the situation worse for the remaining GPs.
  • Remember that GPs are not the only people who are allowed to prescribe outside of hospital medicine. You now have nurse practitioners, podiatrists, chiropodists, pharmacists, dentists and anyone else who has done a prescribing course. Have they been looked at? It would be easy to obtain the figures of who is prescribing what and then look at the rationale for it. Anecdotal evidence suggests higher rates of inappropriate antibiotic prescribing in nurse practitioners because they are more likely to be risk averse.
  • There's this view that "soft-touch" GPs are more likely to prescribe antibiotics. Some of it may be true. Again, avoiding risk may be a factor - it may be safer to prescribe than risk something going wrong, or some GPs are more likely to cave to pressure from demanding patients. I've worked with doctors who find it difficult to say no, or don't wish to have confrontation or destroy the doctor-patient relationship. But not all GPs are "soft touch" and not all "soft touch" doctors are going to prescribe more antibiotics.
  • More and more patients are demanding to get better more quickly. They can't afford to be unwell, or they simply just can't cope with symptoms. I recall the 20-something year old girl who waited in A&E for four hours complaining of a sore throat and was then surprised when I told her it was viral. I think she'd had the symptoms for less than a day. At other times, I've have parents bring in their children with symptoms less than six hours old because they've had the same thing happen in the past eg little Tommy had an ear infection last time that required antibiotics, and now he's had ear pain for 3 hours and he must be having another infection. When you look, there's nothing to see.
  • Another factor with patients is not being able to have time off work to see a doctor, or being reprimanded for doing so. I've had patients who have been off sick with a genuine medical problem that may or may not involve hospital care and yet they still have to have a chat with their boss about the time off and how it's going to be written as a reprimand or similar in their file. It doesn't help the situation as people are then more likely to want to get back to work more quickly. It also means it's harder to get patients to come back and review things - there simply isn't time on either side to allow things to develop and see whether it was viral or bacterial.
  • Historically, viral infections resolved spontaneously and bacterial infections were more likely to need intervention. There's no easy way to tell if someone has a bacterial or viral infection. A GP will have a thermometer, an auriscope and stethoscope. You can go by clinical history and examination and come out with a sensible diagnosis but you can still be wrong. We still don't have things like point-of-care testing where a simple test in the surgery can determine if something is viral or bacterial. Even with formal blood tests, it's still cheaper on the NHS to prescribe an antibiotic than it is to do blood tests for markers of infection. Blood tests also take a few days to come back, and in the meantime that patient may have deteriorated.
  • Patients may improve with antibiotics, and they may improve without them. But if you don't prescribe and the patient gets worse, what happens? They develop septicaemia and die. I've seen patient develop sepsis from a urinary tract infection, or a simple chest infection, or even a skin cut. Sometimes a course of oral antibiotics in primary care prevents that patient from needing hospital admission and/or dying.
  • And if something does happen, there'll be a complaint against the GP. And if the patient doesn't get what they want, they can complain to the GMC, to the CCG, to their MP, and complain on the various feedback websites. But there's no comeback from the GP - we can't countersue, we can't reply to complaints about what happened on websites, and the GMC will take their time over their investigation and then put a mark against the GP's file. Can't win. It's all heavily one-sided and it's all tipped in the patient's favour since they're not patients but "consumers". They've been stoked up to demand what they want and told to see their GP for every little thing.
  • It doesn't help that antibiotics are available over the counter in other countries, especially in Spain. It should be noted that Spain has the highest levels of antibiotic resistance in Europe. Antibiotics are also widely used in livestock. All this does is promote resistance. You don't even need to prescribe antibiotics to patients for resistance to occur. Moreover, bacteria will share genetic material so one bacterium that wasn't resistant to say penicillin is now suddenly resistant either because of mutation or because they received genetic material from a bacterium that is already resistant.
  • With all this resistance, what about developing more antibiotics? Unfortunately it's not profitable. Pharmaceutical companies will only develop if they're gonna make a profit and those drugs that are needed for long periods of time are more profitable. A short of course of any antibiotic won't make any money. Not whilst there's still other antibiotics. When we're at the stage that only IV antibiotics are available, maybe they'll develop something then. But not now.

_________________
Image
He fights for the users.


Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:54 am
Profile
What's a life?
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:26 pm
Posts: 17040
Reply with quote
The thing that struck me was the statement that Doctors feel pressurised to prescribe antibiotics by patients. Err what? Since when do patients decide what medication is appropriate for themselves? All else is fair enough, but that should simply not be happening.

What we probably need is a placebo/sugar pill with a feasible sounding 'drug name' that can be prescribed to the 'worried slightly unwell'. It'd probably have as much effect as an anti-biotic anyway...


Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:40 am
Profile
What's a life?
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm
Posts: 10022
Reply with quote
jonbwfc wrote:
...Doctors feel pressurised to prescribe antibiotics by patients....

Unfortunately, some patients don't take kindly to being told something is viral. I've had patients shout at me, swear at me, try and bully me. Other docs have had patients who have made threats. There are some nasty people out there. A lot of the time, it's mothers who want something for their child's cough and they'll stomp and shout. Sad to say, it's often those who shout the loudest. Sometimes prescribing an antibiotic is the safest option. If people had to pay for their prescriptions (as well as to see the GP), things would be different. If you're over 18 and working, you'll pay unless you're exempt and quite often it's those in the exemption criteria (child under 16, on benefits, over 60) who shout the loudest. I find those who have to pay a prescription charge tend to be the most reasonable.

jonbwfc wrote:
What we probably need is a placebo/sugar pill with a feasible sounding 'drug name' that can be prescribed to the 'worried slightly unwell'. It'd probably have as much effect as an anti-biotic anyway...

Whilst it would be nice, it's medically unethical in this day and age. And with the power of the internet, patients would easily find out if it were a placebo.

_________________
Image
He fights for the users.


Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:56 am
Profile
What's a life?
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:25 pm
Posts: 10691
Location: Bramsche
Reply with quote
I was pretty dumbstruck when I read that. Especially the bullying bit.

When I was growing up, you went to the doctor, because he was an expert in healthcare and you took his advice. It is pretty much the same over here now.

I go to the doctor's and he tells me it is viral, take paracetamol for the fever and take it easy/ stay in bed for a few days, who am I to argue.

I've been told many times that antibiotics aren't right for my symptoms. I always thought it funny, why would the doctor tell me what isn't going to help? Surely he should be telling me what is going to help... Now that starts to make sense.

Where has this attitude come from, that a qualified professional should be bullied, because I, as a layperson, know more than them with their years of training?

_________________
"Do you know what this is? Hmm? No, I can see you do not. You have that vacant look in your eyes, which says hold my head to your ear, you will hear the sea!" - Londo Molari

Executive Producer No Agenda Show 246


Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:50 pm
Profile ICQ
I haven't seen my friends in so long
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:03 pm
Posts: 5041
Location: London
Reply with quote
big_D wrote:
Where has this attitude come from, that a qualified professional should be bullied, because I, as a layperson, know more than them with their years of training?

Ahh but you have forgotten - with Google every oik is suddenly an expert and that sore throat is, once they have Googled the symptoms, some strange tropic disease even though the furthest they have travelled is to Blackpool !

_________________
John_Vella wrote:
OK, so all we need to do is find a half African, half Chinese, half Asian, gay, one eyed, wheelchair bound dwarf with tourettes and a lisp, and a st st stutter and we could make the best panel show ever.


Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:56 am
Profile
What's a life?
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:26 pm
Posts: 17040
Reply with quote
cloaked_wolf wrote:
jonbwfc wrote:
What we probably need is a placebo/sugar pill with a feasible sounding 'drug name' that can be prescribed to the 'worried slightly unwell'. It'd probably have as much effect as an anti-biotic anyway...

Whilst it would be nice, it's medically unethical in this day and age. And with the power of the internet, patients would easily find out if it were a placebo.

Is it more medically ethical to give somebody a placebo that won't cure the problem but might make them feel a bit better due to the the placebo effect, or an antibiotic that won't cure the problem, might make them feel a bit better due to the placebo effect and, sadly, will also ever so slightly accelerate the time when we actually do have a bacterial immunity crisis, at which point we're all pretty screwed?

I appreciate fooling/lying to the patient is always ethically murky but the fact is you're lying to them just as much giving them an antibiotic that won't cure their problem just to shut them up.

Brass tacks : people demanding medication they don't need because they feel they have to be given 'proper service' from their doctors isn't going to be solved by hoping people get less stupid. Of the options available - give them a placebo, give them an antibiotic, call whatever security may be available to have the physically turfed out of the consulting room - giving them a placebo is actually the least harmful solution.

of course, it isn't going to happen because that's just not how we operate as a society. But it doesn't change the fact that it's true.


Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:09 pm
Profile
I haven't seen my friends in so long
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:37 am
Posts: 6954
Location: Peebo
Reply with quote
While I don't disagree with jon's point above the problem is that when, not if, it became clear that doctors were dishing out placebos there would be serious damage to the reputation and trust in the medical profession as a whole.

_________________
When they put teeth in your mouth, they spoiled a perfectly good bum.
-Billy Connolly (to a heckler)


Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:14 pm
Profile
What's a life?
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:26 pm
Posts: 17040
Reply with quote
davrosG5 wrote:
While I don't disagree with jon's point above the problem is that when, not if, it became clear that doctors were dishing out placebos there would be serious damage to the reputation and trust in the medical profession as a whole.

You are of course correct, fear of the backlash is one of the things that is keeping this from ever happening.

I appreciate the argument, genuinely, but this is not a null-sum game. The unnecessary prescription of antibiotics is causing measurable harm to us as a species and will, if scientific opinion is to be believed, probably make things much, much worse for our descendants. So it's not just doctor's reputations that's at stake here.We need to stop being being prescribed drugs we have, essentially, a limited supply of before they stop working.


Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:34 pm
Profile
What's a life?
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm
Posts: 10022
Reply with quote
big_D wrote:
I was pretty dumbstruck when I read that. Especially the bullying bit.

Where has this attitude come from, that a qualified professional should be bullied, because I, as a layperson, know more than them with their years of training?

Sense of entitlement. Stoked up by Govt, media and the internet. Everything is very much "me! me! me" and "I want! I want!". The lower down the social class you go, the worse this problem becomes. Hence in run down areas, surgeries have bars on windows, and receptionists have screened windows like in a bank.

hifidelity2 wrote:
Ahh but you have forgotten - with Google every oik is suddenly an expert and that sore throat is, once they have Googled the symptoms, some strange tropic disease even though the furthest they have travelled is to Blackpool !

Google can be helpful and a hindrance. It can make it easier to explain something the patient has read up on or explain why that headache is not a brain tumour. But you still have people pushing for scans. In the "olden" days, X-rays were the choice. A patient wouldn't be happy that a toe pain was nothing unless they had an x-ray which then turned out to be normal. Suddenly, they'd put up with the pain. These days, it's MRI or CT scans.

jonbwfc wrote:
I appreciate fooling/lying to the patient is always ethically murky but the fact is you're lying to them just as much giving them an antibiotic that won't cure their problem just to shut them up.

It's better to educate the public to self-manage a simple cough or cold, rather than getting them to rely on medication in the first place. Change their expectations.

davrosG5 wrote:
While I don't disagree with jon's point above the problem is that when, not if, it became clear that doctors were dishing out placebos there would be serious damage to the reputation and trust in the medical profession as a whole.

Completely agree. The Govt has been trying to destroy the reputation and trust of medics through media spin. An example is Jeremy Hunt stating consultants should not opt out of weekend working. He says 6000 patients die a year because of consultants not working weekends. What he failed to do was check his facts which would have showed that of the 4000 consultants there are, only 1 consultant had opted out. Can you really blame 6000 patients' deaths on one consultant?

jonbwfc wrote:
So it's not just doctor's reputations that's at stake here.We need to stop being being prescribed drugs we have, essentially, a limited supply of before they stop working.

It's more than the reputation. If someone comes to me with an illness and I tell them it's viral, they're more likely to come back if they get worse or no better. If I give them medication (in this case a placebo), they are less likely to come back if it's not working or if they're getting worse because they believe the placebo will kick in. The danger is misdiagnosing something as viral when it's bacterial and the patient dies. In this case, the least worst option is giving antibiotics. Hence I'm more likely to give antibiotics to children, to the elderly or those with co-morbidities because they are more likely to be hospitalised or die if it's bacterial infection.

_________________
Image
He fights for the users.


Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:08 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 11 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software.