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paulzolo
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:27 pm Posts: 12251
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And if all goes well for him, a nicely paid directorship if he can weather the storm and get the things he’s been told to do done.
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Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:04 pm |
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jonbwfc
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:26 pm Posts: 17040
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Hunt's own staff say 7 day rota won't make any difference to patient death rates.I know the chances of him actually sticking his head above the parapet and appearing on QT are next to nil but it would be so, so worth watching if he did.
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Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:29 pm |
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cloaked_wolf
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm Posts: 10022
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The problem with death rates is that those who are admitted at the weekend are more likely to die. If you look at admissions during the weekday, you have elective (planned) admissions eg for knee surgery which skews the figures. Those sent in during the week as emergency are often sent in by their GP who may have picked up something earlier.
It's something that happens across healthcare systems in the world. Moreover, these people don't die at the weekends but tend to die during the weekday.
Hunt's plan is to use this to force 7-day working. Which means there will be more elective admissions over the weekend, which will balance out the statistics. The same number of people admitted as emergency and dying won't specifically change but will be "diluted" in with non-emergency admissions. It will be presented as "proof".
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Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:18 am |
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TheFrenchun
Officially Mrs saspro
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:55 pm Posts: 4955 Location: on the naughty step
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How is 7 day working implemented? Do they increase overall hours worked?
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Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:48 am |
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jonbwfc
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:26 pm Posts: 17040
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By magically reclassifying Saturday as a weekday. As someone pointed out on QT last week - the same number of people are going to die, the effect will simply be to balance the number of people who die over all 7 days rather than having fewer on 5 and more on the other 2.
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Tue Feb 16, 2016 2:51 pm |
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jonbwfc
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:26 pm Posts: 17040
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Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:08 am |
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cloaked_wolf
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm Posts: 10022
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The GMC have started cashing in on this by charging for these letters, which used to be free.
There are a few points of concern with the proposed contract, not all of it to do with money:
Night shifts Currently this is defined as 7pm to 7am IIRC, and there is a limit to how many you can do in a row without a break. The proposed contract does not recognise work done outside of 11pm to 6am for less than three hours. So I could work from 6pm to 2am (well 1.59am) and this would not be recognised as a night shift, nor would any part of it be recognised as a nightshift.
Spare time A junior doc can work up to 48 hours in a week (though max limit is 56 hours). They can do extra work out of this eg work in sports medicine or for a charity. Under the proposed contract, if a junior doc wants to do extra work, they must give the NHS trust first refusal.
Escalation There's a proposal for a new role for someone to monitor working hours for junior docs and escalate if things become unsafe. Sounds great, except while the BMA wants someone independent, NHS England (NHSE) want someone on the hospital's payroll to do the monitoring instead.
Missed breaks It's inevitable that working as a junior doc means you won't have a chance to have a break. NHSE say doctors have paid breaks and hence if they miss their break, there should be no financial penalty. BMA say there should be one to ensure junior docs get a break during their shift.
Additional hours Through good will, junior docs often work past their shift time. The BMA feel junior docs should be paid for all work they do and that a penalty for the trust would limit junior docs being exploited. NHSE say they will pay junior docs but only at their normal hourly rate for this "overtime" work.
Non-resident on-call Historically, the doctor would sleep in the doctor's room at the end of the ward. Hence they were resident on-call. These rooms have since been demolished and converted into managerial offices, and junior docs have to stay at home and be available until called in. NHSE will pay on-call rates for when the doctor is called in but not when they're at home. Instead they offer 5% of basic pay for a doctor to sit at home. The BMA wants this to be bumped up to 5-20% depending on intensity and frequency.
London weighting London is more expensive to live in and certainly staff are paid more when working in London compared to the same job/role elsewhere in the country. The cost of living in London has gone up but the weighting hasn't increased in the last five years. BMA wants to bring this up to date. NHSE doesn't.
Pay protection Currently, if a junior doc decides after four years of surgery that they want to change to medicine, paediatrics or any other specialty, the NHS recognises their extra years of experience and add this to their pay ladder. Hence this junior doc would be four pay levels above a colleague just starting say paediatrics and is reflective of their experience. NHSE want to abolish this so your pay drops back to the lowest rung.
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Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:58 pm |
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MrStevenRogers
Spends far too much time on here
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:44 pm Posts: 4860
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 |  |  |  | cloaked_wolf wrote: The GMC have started cashing in on this by charging for these letters, which used to be free.
There are a few points of concern with the proposed contract, not all of it to do with money:
Night shifts Currently this is defined as 7pm to 7am IIRC, and there is a limit to how many you can do in a row without a break. The proposed contract does not recognise work done outside of 11pm to 6am for less than three hours. So I could work from 6pm to 2am (well 1.59am) and this would not be recognised as a night shift, nor would any part of it be recognised as a nightshift.
Spare time A junior doc can work up to 48 hours in a week (though max limit is 56 hours). They can do extra work out of this eg work in sports medicine or for a charity. Under the proposed contract, if a junior doc wants to do extra work, they must give the NHS trust first refusal.
welcome to my world ... Escalation There's a proposal for a new role for someone to monitor working hours for junior docs and escalate if things become unsafe. Sounds great, except while the BMA wants someone independent, NHS England (NHSE) want someone on the hospital's payroll to do the monitoring instead.
Missed breaks It's inevitable that working as a junior doc means you won't have a chance to have a break. NHSE say doctors have paid breaks and hence if they miss their break, there should be no financial penalty. BMA say there should be one to ensure junior docs get a break during their shift.
Additional hours Through good will, junior docs often work past their shift time. The BMA feel junior docs should be paid for all work they do and that a penalty for the trust would limit junior docs being exploited. NHSE say they will pay junior docs but only at their normal hourly rate for this "overtime" work.
Non-resident on-call Historically, the doctor would sleep in the doctor's room at the end of the ward. Hence they were resident on-call. These rooms have since been demolished and converted into managerial offices, and junior docs have to stay at home and be available until called in. NHSE will pay on-call rates for when the doctor is called in but not when they're at home. Instead they offer 5% of basic pay for a doctor to sit at home. The BMA wants this to be bumped up to 5-20% depending on intensity and frequency.
London weighting London is more expensive to live in and certainly staff are paid more when working in London compared to the same job/role elsewhere in the country. The cost of living in London has gone up but the weighting hasn't increased in the last five years. BMA wants to bring this up to date. NHSE doesn't.
Pay protection Currently, if a junior doc decides after four years of surgery that they want to change to medicine, paediatrics or any other specialty, the NHS recognises their extra years of experience and add this to their pay ladder. Hence this junior doc would be four pay levels above a colleague just starting say paediatrics and is reflective of their experience. NHSE want to abolish this so your pay drops back to the lowest rung. |  |  |  |  |
welcome to my world they have been doing this and more to working people for years, welcome to the club ...
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Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:24 pm |
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cloaked_wolf
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm Posts: 10022
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Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:29 pm |
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MrStevenRogers
Spends far too much time on here
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:44 pm Posts: 4860
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they have been doing this in the private sector for years. now it seems they are training their guns upon the NHS and its doctors. oh well and if you think about it all they are doing is turning the NHS into a supermarket with the same rules applied ...
_________________ Hope this helps . . . Steve ...
Nothing known travels faster than light, except bad news ... HP Pavilion 24" AiO. Ryzen7u. 32GB/1TB M2. Windows 11 Home ...
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Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:43 pm |
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jonbwfc
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:26 pm Posts: 17040
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Small problem with that - you can't 'deskill' the doctors out of the NHS. It's not legal for people other than doctors to do lots of things doctors do. If the British doctors leave, you have to get other doctors in and they have to have certification, so the PHCs can't employ them on a fraction of what they currently pay, because they just won't come, they'll go to Germany or France instead. If the 'private NHS' employs people with lesser qualifications and as a result patients are injured or die, those private health companies will be open to massive litigation.
There is shown in the fact that actually, doctors of equivalent skill and experience in the American system get paid more than doctors in the NHS. Several times more in fact. For exactly this reason - if an NHS doctor messes up, there's maybe an inquiry, 'lessons learned', maybe one of the hospital executives resigns, maybe damages in the hundreds of thousands. If an American doctor screws up, the PHC gets sued to oblivion and compensation generally is in the millions, possibly tens of millions. They can't afford to have unskilled doctors who mights screw up, because it could wipe out a huge chunk of their profits at a stroke.
Our health service, public or private, cannot be run the same way a supermarket can, because there are no 'medical shelf stackers' left. Every unskilled job in the NHS pretty much already has been outsourced and all that's left are skills and professions that require a certified certain level of competence to legally practice. And with that certified level of competence comes an expectation of salary, and if the employers don't meet it, they'll just go somewhere else where the employers will.
Doctors are in demand the world over, pretty much. There simply aren't enough people that smart to go round. The profits of American PHCs are based not on reducing the cost operations but on massive fees to customers and a ruthless intention to never pay out unless they absolutely are forced to.
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Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:05 pm |
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cloaked_wolf
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm Posts: 10022
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In some ways, I agree with you. There are certain things only a registered medical practitioner (ie medical doctor as opposed to PhD doctor) can do. The problem is that there's been a lot creeping of jobs. I've worked in an A&E department where there were "advanced clinical practitioners". These were staff who were trained to take a history and examination. They would then run this past a senior doctor before making treatment plans. The problem is that they struggled with anything outside of "protocol". If a patient came in with back pain and they thought it was muscular (for example) then they would happily go along and do history, examination and management as relevant to muscular back pain. The sticking point is that they couldn't string things together and see it wasn't muscular back pain, or that there might be other causes that warranted investigation. Protocol-driven medicine is what hospitals love, and it's what could be done by a nurse practitioner or even a computer algorithm. The problem is that very few patients could be fitted into a protocol pathway.
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Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:33 am |
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jonbwfc
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:26 pm Posts: 17040
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All true but the point remains; if that lesser qualified and skilled staff makes a mistake - which as a lesser qualified and skilled person they are likely to do, as you explain - then the private company who employed them is liable. Qualification and certification are not only protection for the patient, but for the provider too.
As far as I know, GPS have to have individual litigation insurance because they're individual private practitioners, whereas in hospitals each staff member is covered by the hospital's litigation coverage. if you've got people in A&E or say paediatrics who aren't as skilled, then the insurers are going to demand more premiums, it's as simple as that. I don't know if the reduction in staff costs will offset that increase, but I imagine premium costs will spike like hell the first time some hospital gets sued because some "advanced clinical practitioner" got a diagnosis wrong.
There's an unquantifiable benefit for being a public service - the people you service have sympathy for you. Some people are actually more reluctant to sue the NHS than other businesses because they think 'well, it's our money anyway and any money I get means someone else doesn't get treated'. I can't imagine they would have the same reticence to go after Virgin Healthcare or some US health conglomerate they've never heard of. And I'm sure there are plenty of ambulance chasers who are just waiting to get involved on a 'no win no fee' basis.
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Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:10 am |
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cloaked_wolf
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm Posts: 10022
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Completely agree. Hospital doctors have both indemnity though insurance services as well as crown indemnity. The problem with the latter is that it's very much vested in protecting the hospital rather than the doctor, so they will let the doctor hang if the hospital can get off scott-free. In general practice, the partners are self-employed and pay for indemnity which is generally around £8k-10k mark per year.
Interestingly, up until recently, nurse practitioners and the like were covered by the practice group indemnity. But because there are more of them and they are doing and seeing more, indemnity has gone up by so much, it's cheaper to employ a doctor.
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Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:40 am |
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cloaked_wolf
What's a life?
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:46 pm Posts: 10022
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 82541.htmlHunt says junior docs won't work two consecutive weekends. He wasn't lying technically. It's three!
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Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:35 am |
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