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Royal Mail loses Amazon contract as postal strikes loom 
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jonbwfc wrote:
MrStevenRogers wrote:
the Govt. have taken a lot out of all private pension funds but then expect the tax payer to fund the public sector pensions not too dissimilar to privatisation of profits and the nationalisation of debt for the banking system …

The tax payer funds all pension systems if you think about it, the money doesn't come out of thin air. You (and I) finance public pension systems through taxes and many private pension systems through the goods we buy. Every time you buy (I dunno) a sandwich from M&S, that sandwich could be cheaper if M&S weren't having to pay into their employee pension scheme. I find it strange some people are so resentful about 'paying money into public service pensions' yet don't even think about the money they pay into 'private service pensions' because it's slightly less direct.

It's not at all like the 'nationalisation' of the banking system. In fact, the government bailing out the banks actually saved an awful lot of private pension schemes whose assets would have been worth buttons if the banks had gone to the wall.

We either have company pension schemes, or we don't. Public service pensions are just 'company' pension schemes where the company gets it's incomings by taxes rather than sales or services. The alternative is to not have 'group' schemes at all and it is simply each individual's responsibility to manage their own pension but we don't do that because most people aren't competent to do so.

As to the post office, the strike is far from being simply about pay. I'm sure certain people (*cough*Mandleson*cough*) would like everyone to believe that so they could get public support to push through privatisation. The reality is that that would not help this issue at all as almost certainly any privatisation would first see the pension requirement 'hived off' to the government - no private equity would touch the GPO with a bargepole if it still had the pension deficit attached. So what would happen is the government would get a lump of cash - which they would waste - the consumer would find prices rising even faster and we would still have the GPO's pension deficit as a drain on the public finances. So everyone would lose, except probably the GPO management and a couple of ministers who would get cushy well paid jobs on the new Post Office Ltd's board of directors.
Privatising the GPO would be as successful as privatising the railways. Some things aren't best suited to operating according to market principles.

(note: I have absolutely no connection to the post office, their staff or any such. I just generally follow the rule that the press only ever give you one side of the story and it's up to you to find out the whole truth).

Jon


Quote:
Professional Pensions: One fifth of council tax income ploughed into local authority schemes

Up to a fifth of council tax income is spent on funding public sector pensions, information from pressure group Tax Payers' Alliance reveals.

The group said local authority pension schemes cost taxpayers £4.5bn in 2007-08, equivalent to 19% of council tax revenue, with an average contribution per council of £9.8m.


http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/media/ ... hemes.html

i would sooner pay 20% less council tax and they pay for there own pension, simples …

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Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:54 pm
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MrStevenRogers wrote:
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Professional Pensions: One fifth of council tax income ploughed into local authority schemes
Up to a fifth of council tax income is spent on funding public sector pensions, information from pressure group Tax Payers' Alliance reveals.
The group said local authority pension schemes cost taxpayers £4.5bn in 2007-08, equivalent to 19% of council tax revenue, with an average contribution per council of £9.8m.

http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/media/ ... hemes.html
i would sooner pay 20% less council tax and they pay for there own pension, simples …

If council employees were required to take out personal pension plans, the council would have to pay them more. You wouldn't see 20% of your money back by any stretch. Why is this so hard for people to understand? You can't make money out of nowhere. It doesn't appear in a puff of smoke. Unless you're bailing out a bank it seems. Show me any council that's cost the taxpayer a tenth of what RBS have, by the way.

Do you honestly expect that, if the council went to its employees and said 'OK, we're not paying into your pensions any more. Sorry, but you'll have to make up the full amount yourself' the council employees would just say 'Oh, OK'? Course they wouldn't. If your boss told you you had to take an (effective) 20% pay cut you wouldn't just shrug either. You'd do the same thing they would - strike (if you liked the job itself) or quit (if you didn't). It's all very well to go with the stereotype that all council employees are feckless layabouts but do you really think that's true in reality? And if a chunk of council employees walked out because of a pay cut, do you think we'd be left with the feckless ones or the ones who actually got stuff done and could most easily get a job somewhere else? I'll give you a clue : the few good ones would leave and we'd all be f!cked.

I really really hate this attitude that councils are full of expendable employees and 'if you don't want to do it for that money, they'll get someone who will'. Again I say - you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. if you want cheap council tax be prepared for slapdash public services. Why do people expect to get equally good service for less money? Is it some sort of magic? You get what you pay for.

Jon


Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:19 pm
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There is the corollary that if state pensions are too good then private pensions may not be good enough either. If people want an income equivalent to two thirds of their final salary, then people will need to put a lot more into their pension fund. That will mean either bigger employee contributions or employer contributions. I estimate that you will need to put more than a third of your income into a pension in order to have a pension that will keep you in retirement. You will also need to add more savings if you need to have a rainy day fund or buy a house.

Either way that means lower profits and lower standards of living now in order to maintain standards of living in the future. None of which you will hear from a politician.

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Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:29 pm
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jonbwfc wrote:
davrosG5 wrote:
Now, when anyone tries to threaten public pension provision the strikes come thick and fast and it's this that makes me angry.
You can't fault the unions for trying to get the best deal for their members, it's what they are there for after all.

While I kind of agree with both statements, you have to admit they're kind of contradictory :).

davrosG5 wrote:
Still, the Royal Mail strikes are going to be a massive own goal for the CWU members as it's now more than likely that there will be redundancies due to the loss of business this will cause.

You really think that will improve the service to you?

Jon


I suppose they are somewhat contradictory but hey, who said everything had to make sense.
Unions are there to protect their members so naturally, if anyone tries to cut their members benefits they have to do something. In the case of the public service unions however I think they have to tread very carefully. Public service jobs have been getting better in terms of pay and benefits compared to some jobs in the private sector and the public service unions are very strong. However there will come a point when the people working in the private sector will look at that sort of things the public sector gets and that the unions are trying to protect and say "Well I don't get any of that and haven't for a long time, why should they be special?".

Perhaps, in my case, this is because I'm on the short end of the stick at the moment. I've had a pay cut and a pension cut as a result of the economic climate so when public sector workers are moaning that they are getting small pay rises then it makes me very cross. Not necessarily fair but there you go.

As for Royal Mail and the CWU I unfortunately don't think that any strike action will ultimately benefit the staff as RM will loose some of it's big customers so there will likely be redundancies. Sadly, it would appear that strikes are likely as the RM management don't seem willing to move towards the staff position to reach a compromise to the CWU obviously feels it has few options left. I think I will be hearing a talk from the local CWU secretary at the end of the month so it will be interesting to hear what he has to say.

Quote:
If council employees were required to take out personal pension plans, the council would have to pay them more. You wouldn't see 20% of your money back by any stretch. Why is this so hard for people to understand?


There is a difference between an entirely personal pension plan and a non final salary work based scheme.
In the private sector people who lost their final salary scheme didn't necessarily get any pay increase, they got bumped onto a stakeholder/defined contribution scheme where their employer put in less money. The employees own contributions would likely either stay the same or have to increase a bit. That was one of the reasons final salary schemes closed, it was a massive saving to the employer in terms of pension contributions. If they do it to realise a saving they won't increase peoples wages to a sufficient level to compensate as it would make the exercise pointless. It also means they have to worry less and less about a deficit in the pension fund over time as it becomes the employees risk, not theirs. It sucks but it's the way it is.
In essence, why should council and other public sector employees get better treatment than their counterparts in the private sector?

At present an employer doesn't have to do a vast amount in terms of pension provisions for their employees. At present a company or personal pension contribution from your employer is essentially perk or benefit of your job, not a right.
That will change when the new personal account system comes in in a few years (employers will have to put in a minimum of 3% as will employees unless they opt out of the scheme). The danger a lot of people in the private sector see from this new scheme is that it will give employers who currently pay more than 3% into their employees pensions a way to reduce their contributions as they will still meet the government minimum. Whether of not that happens isn't clear as doing so will be a cut in benefits so employees may seek a different job so employers with good pensions may choose to maintain their contributions to attract the best employees.

Of course the real reason pensions are in such a mess is that everyone is living longer and retirement age hasn't been adjusted accordingly (plus continual interference and messing about by successive governments). Retirement age both for the state pension and private pensions really needs to be increased, and increased significantly (to 70 or more) if the existing system is to continue. As Amnesia10 points out though, no government is going to push that one as it would be electoral suicide, especially given the disparity in voting habits between the young and the old. And the situation is only going to get worse as the population ages.

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Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:55 pm
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DavrosG5 wrote:
Perhaps, in my case, this is because I'm on the short end of the stick at the moment. I've had a pay cut and a pension cut as a result of the economic climate so when public sector workers are moaning that they are getting small pay rises then it makes me very cross. Not necessarily fair but there you go.


Boo hoo? Public sector workers already earn less than their private sector counterparts!!

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Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:54 pm
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jonbwfc wrote:
MrStevenRogers wrote:
Quote:
Professional Pensions: One fifth of council tax income ploughed into local authority schemes
Up to a fifth of council tax income is spent on funding public sector pensions, information from pressure group Tax Payers' Alliance reveals.
The group said local authority pension schemes cost taxpayers £4.5bn in 2007-08, equivalent to 19% of council tax revenue, with an average contribution per council of £9.8m.

http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/media/ ... hemes.html
i would sooner pay 20% less council tax and they pay for there own pension, simples …

If council employees were required to take out personal pension plans, the council would have to pay them more. You wouldn't see 20% of your money back by any stretch. Why is this so hard for people to understand? You can't make money out of nowhere. It doesn't appear in a puff of smoke. Unless you're bailing out a bank it seems. Show me any council that's cost the taxpayer a tenth of what RBS have, by the way.

Do you honestly expect that, if the council went to its employees and said 'OK, we're not paying into your pensions any more. Sorry, but you'll have to make up the full amount yourself' the council employees would just say 'Oh, OK'? Course they wouldn't. If your boss told you you had to take an (effective) 20% pay cut you wouldn't just shrug either. You'd do the same thing they would - strike (if you liked the job itself) or quit (if you didn't). It's all very well to go with the stereotype that all council employees are feckless layabouts but do you really think that's true in reality? And if a chunk of council employees walked out because of a pay cut, do you think we'd be left with the feckless ones or the ones who actually got stuff done and could most easily get a job somewhere else? I'll give you a clue : the few good ones would leave and we'd all be f!cked.

I really really hate this attitude that councils are full of expendable employees and 'if you don't want to do it for that money, they'll get someone who will'. Again I say - you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. if you want cheap council tax be prepared for slapdash public services. Why do people expect to get equally good service for less money? Is it some sort of magic? You get what you pay for.

Jon


i do not wish or require my tax, be it council, PAYE or any other form, to pay for pensions of public employees
other then the state pension (via NI)
and i mean, any public employees of any kind in any shape or in any form
they must pay for there own pension or find other work

and i don't care which public service they work for

it is there pension they pay for it not me or anyone else paying taxes
and i don't really care how that is done or achieved …

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Last edited by MrStevenRogers on Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:55 pm
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MrStevenRogers wrote:
i do not wish or require my tax, be it council, PAYE or any other form, to pay for pensions of public employees
and i mean, any public employees of any kind in any shape or in any form
they must pay for there own pension or find other work

and i don't care which public service they work for

it is there pension they pay for it not me or anyone else paying taxes
and i don't really care how that is done or achieved …


Fine, give them competitive pay then. I would bet good money that that would end up costing the taxpayer more.

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Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:56 pm
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Linux_User wrote:
MrStevenRogers wrote:
i do not wish or require my tax, be it council, PAYE or any other form, to pay for pensions of public employees
and i mean, any public employees of any kind in any shape or in any form
they must pay for there own pension or find other work

and i don't care which public service they work for

it is there pension they pay for it not me or anyone else paying taxes
and i don't really care how that is done or achieved …


Fine, give them competitive pay then. I would bet good money that that would end up costing the taxpayer more.


try working in, lets say, retail
or on minimum wage job

tell me a public sector worker on that type of money


they pay for there pension or rely on the state pension
as i am damned if i will/want/need too pay taxes for public service pensions …

the public service pensions can go to hell and freeze there before i would give the public service the time of day …

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Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:06 pm
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MrStevenRogers wrote:
Try working in, lets say, retail
or on minimum wage job. tell me a public sector worker on that type of money

Effing Norah. Exactly what planet are you on? There are hundreds of thousands of public sector workers on that type of money. The starting pay in the civil service (i.e. a starting office job) is £15K a year gross. That's not much more than the minimum wage.

MrStevenRogers wrote:
they pay for there pension or rely on the state pension
as i am damned if i will/want/need too pay taxes for public service pensions …

Great. OK, when you're next ill or injured, pray all the experienced nurses haven't gone off the private sector and left A&E staffed by people who have just passed their exams. Or that you don't lose a tyre on a pothole that was repaired by a 'lowest bid' contractor (seriously, if you ever go to the US, look at the state of the roads once you get off the freeway). Or that your elderly relatives aren't the ones waiting for their pension cheques to arrive on time.
Benefits like good pensions are the things that are keeping the few good people there are in the public sector there, in leiu of the kind of pay they could get in the private sector but don't get anything like. Take the pensions away and they'll all piss off, and then you really will see how bad things can get.

MrStevenRogers wrote:
the public service pensions can go to hell and freeze there before i would give the public service the time of day …

Well that's nice, because a lot of them give you the time of day every day whether you notice it or not. You'd bloody well notice if they didn't, believe me.

Jon


Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:34 pm
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Looks like when I have kids I will have to explain to them that there was once a company called "Royal Mail."

The workers are after a larger slice of the cake, but they will destroy the cake in the process, leaving them with nothing. Demanding higher wages from a company losing millions every year and carrying out industrial action whilst competitors fish for your company's most important contracts seems extremely silly to me.


Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:50 pm
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I'm guessing the RM staff have been striking for so long in the past that to back out now isn't a realistic option for the future, though that's uncertain anyway as many here have pointed out... I wouldn't be surprised if Mandy's somehow behind forcing their hand to bring things to a nice business conclusion though ;)

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Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:18 pm
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jonbwfc wrote:
MrStevenRogers wrote:
Try working in, lets say, retail
or on minimum wage job. tell me a public sector worker on that type of money

Effing Norah. Exactly what planet are you on? There are hundreds of thousands of public sector workers on that type of money. The starting pay in the civil service (i.e. a starting office job) is £15K a year gross. That's not much more than the minimum wage.

MrStevenRogers wrote:
they pay for there pension or rely on the state pension
as i am damned if i will/want/need too pay taxes for public service pensions …

Great. OK, when you're next ill or injured, pray all the experienced nurses haven't gone off the private sector and left A&E staffed by people who have just passed their exams. Or that you don't lose a tyre on a pothole that was repaired by a 'lowest bid' contractor (seriously, if you ever go to the US, look at the state of the roads once you get off the freeway). Or that your elderly relatives aren't the ones waiting for their pension cheques to arrive on time.
Benefits like good pensions are the things that are keeping the few good people there are in the public sector there, in leiu of the kind of pay they could get in the private sector but don't get anything like. Take the pensions away and they'll all piss off, and then you really will see how bad things can get.

MrStevenRogers wrote:
the public service pensions can go to hell and freeze there before i would give the public service the time of day …

Well that's nice, because a lot of them give you the time of day every day whether you notice it or not. You'd bloody well notice if they didn't, believe me.

Jon


there is away to do this via the NI system
enacted a voluntary NIE (national insurance enhanced)
whereby you could voluntary up your percentage payments for your NI contributions over the course of your working life
a 4% increase in NI payments under NIE would more then double your state pension

these enhanced contributions must be ring fenced for better pension payments for the individual that is making the NIE payments
this is using the current system without adding any other layers of Govt or pension management …

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Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:59 am
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pcernie wrote:
I'm guessing the RM staff have been striking for so long in the past that to back out now isn't a realistic option for the future, though that's uncertain anyway as many here have pointed out... I wouldn't be surprised if Mandy's somehow behind forcing their hand to bring things to a nice business conclusion though ;)


this stinks of mandy and his mind set …

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Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:06 am
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Linux_User wrote:
DavrosG5 wrote:
Perhaps, in my case, this is because I'm on the short end of the stick at the moment. I've had a pay cut and a pension cut as a result of the economic climate so when public sector workers are moaning that they are getting small pay rises then it makes me very cross. Not necessarily fair but there you go.


Boo hoo? Public sector workers already earn less than their private sector counterparts!!


Not necessarily. I'm a chemist (a chemistry chemist, not a pharmacy chemist) and pretty much any public sector job in my field pays equal or significantly better than I am currently paid and it's bleeding hard to get into public service science jobs (and believe me I've tried).

I'm well aware that some sectors of the civil service aren't as well paid as their private sector counterparts but it's not a blanket all situation. That's what I find annoying. Spokes people for public service jobs more often than not seem to assume that they are the worst paid in all situations when this is not the case.

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Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:34 am
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davrosG5 wrote:
Linux_User wrote:
DavrosG5 wrote:
Perhaps, in my case, this is because I'm on the short end of the stick at the moment. I've had a pay cut and a pension cut as a result of the economic climate so when public sector workers are moaning that they are getting small pay rises then it makes me very cross. Not necessarily fair but there you go.


Boo hoo? Public sector workers already earn less than their private sector counterparts!!


Not necessarily. I'm a chemist (a chemistry chemist, not a pharmacy chemist) and pretty much any public sector job in my field pays equal or significantly better than I am currently paid and it's bleeding hard to get into public service science jobs (and believe me I've tried).

I'm well aware that some sectors of the civil service aren't as well paid as their private sector counterparts but it's not a blanket all situation. That's what I find annoying. Spokes people for public service jobs more often than not seem to assume that they are the worst paid in all situations when this is not the case.


Fair enough, I'd still opt for most situations though. For example most Local Authority Officers (Trading Standards, Environmental Health etc) would easily score more money in the private sector as consultants/in-house employees than they earn at the council.

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