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The EU - In or Out? 

The European Union...in or out?
In 50%  50%  [ 15 ]
Out 37%  37%  [ 11 ]
Don't Know 7%  7%  [ 2 ]
Don't Care 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
PIE! 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
CHEESE! 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 30

The EU - In or Out? 
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I'm really sorry Okenobi...... "that we know and trust"

I have met Norman Baker he seems a decent sort and Tony Benn too, but thats as far as I'm willing to go on this.


Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:03 am
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pcernie wrote:
This is all prefaced with a giant :? ...

I agree on a lot of the consumer laws, but then you also have nonsense like the WEEE initiative, which realistically doesn't seem to help anyone, or the browser grief.


I think WEEE is very effective - where do you think the funding comes from for all the electrical recycling at local tips? Or why all these "trade-in" schemes at places like Comet have suddenly popped up (they'll offer you money for your fridge etc or take it away for free).

pcernie wrote:
The French seem to have gotten away with flouting the so-called rules on all sorts of stuff for years, and I've long forgotten the details, but are we still effectively propping up Germany?


All member states flout the rules, and they all invariably get prosecuted for it. The UK is in the dock for quite a few things at the moment.

As for the CAP, yes it needs reform but let's not forget that British farmers don't benefit as much because the UK sought a "rebate" on its contributions instead.

pcernie wrote:
Did they ever sort out their budget audits etc? :oops:


Again, most of this is down to member states not handling EU budgets correctly.

pcernie wrote:
From what I can gather, we wouldn't want to be at the whims of Europe the way Ireland and Spain are economy-wise either...


Spain and Ireland made their own beds, being part of the EU had no part in it. Sure being part of the Eurozone makes it harder for them to get out of their current mess (as with Greece), but the current mess they're in is of their own making.

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Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:12 am
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Linux_User wrote:
Again, most of this is down to member states not handling EU budgets correctly.

The why is kind of irrelevant. The fact is the EU hasn't had it's books audited properly for what, 17 years? I don't really see how any organisation in that situation can be considered very credible.

Jon


Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:19 am
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Linux_User wrote:

I think WEEE is very effective - where do you think the funding comes from for all the electrical recycling at local tips? Or why all these "trade-in" schemes at places like Comet have suddenly popped up (they'll offer you money for your fridge etc or take it away for free).


That's if your local tip has it or isn't already full when you've drove all the way there, or refusing to take particular items (I'm going on Belfast standards). Realistically, a lot of stuff just gets thrown out in the back entry over here for some member of the council to move, almost no matter what size it is. Or dumped in a nearby skip/side of a railway line :oops:

Joe Average probably has no idea WEEE exists, or cares. And over here at least we had electrical goods dumping facilities quite some time before WEEE came in :?

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All member states flout the rules, and they all invariably get prosecuted for it. The UK is in the dock for quite a few things at the moment.


Yeah, but does it ever actually result in the fines or whatever costing more than what was gained? :?

Quote:
Again, most of this is down to member states not handling EU budgets correctly.


Isn't it up to the EU to sort that out? Presumably it has a system to deal with that sort of thing, or it should do by now, and one that's actually effective...

Quote:
Spain and Ireland made their own beds, being part of the EU had no part in it. Sure being part of the Eurozone makes it harder for them to get out of their current mess (as with Greece), but the current mess they're in is of their own making.


Not being able to set your own interest rate and seeing local decisions hamstrung are big problems to my mind.

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Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:32 am
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pcernie wrote:
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Spain and Ireland made their own beds, being part of the EU had no part in it. Sure being part of the Eurozone makes it harder for them to get out of their current mess (as with Greece), but the current mess they're in is of their own making.


Not being able to set your own interest rate and seeing local decisions hamstrung are big problems to my mind.


I think it's brilliant. Countries like Italy used to "cheat" and alleviate debt through inflation and artificially lower the interest rate and increasing the money supply to provide a temporary boost to the economy. That's not being fiscally responsible, IMO. They now have no choice but to put the economy on a sound footing.

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Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:35 am
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big_D wrote:
Transferring money around is easy, between member states, apart from the UK, there I lose money, because of the currency change and lose again because of the bank charges... I also end up with a pocket full of 10s and 20s (50s are rare), no 50s, 100s, 200s or 500s to keep the number of notes in the pocket down... And if I do manage to get 50s, a lot of shops treat them as if I'd handed over a 500€ note!


I don't know enough about economics to say whether I'd like to be in the euro zone or not.

However, making it easier for tourists to come here really doesn't bother me at all. If they want to come, they'll come whether they have to transfer cash or not.

The lack of £500 notes is just laughable. Who carries that amount of cash with them anyway? I rarely spend more than £20 in cash. I've never seen the need for a £50 note, and certainly never used one.

Who the hell needs to carry around £500 notes? Apart from drug dealers.

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I can travel all over the EU without having to show any ID, unless I come back into the UK.


That's a good thing, and should continue to be the case. It's our right to know who is coming into the country and to check exactly who they are.

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Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:41 am
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Linux_User wrote:
pcernie wrote:
Quote:
Spain and Ireland made their own beds, being part of the EU had no part in it. Sure being part of the Eurozone makes it harder for them to get out of their current mess (as with Greece), but the current mess they're in is of their own making.


Not being able to set your own interest rate and seeing local decisions hamstrung are big problems to my mind.


I think it's brilliant. Countries like Italy used to "cheat" and alleviate debt through inflation and artificially lower the interest rate and increasing the money supply to provide a temporary boost to the economy. That's not being fiscally responsible, IMO. They now have no choice but to put the economy on a sound footing.


But who cares?! That's up to the Italians. If they don't like it, they vote in another government. Western democracy is largely hideously flawed. Added further layers to it does not improve things.


Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:42 am
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okenobi wrote:
But who cares?! That's up to the Italians. If they don't like it, they vote in another government. Western democracy is largely hideously flawed. Added further layers to it does not improve things.


I'm sure the Italians did, perhaps they got sick of carrying baskets of Lira around and thus opted to join the Euro in the first place.

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Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:43 am
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Linux_User wrote:
okenobi wrote:
But who cares?! That's up to the Italians. If they don't like it, they vote in another government. Western democracy is largely hideously flawed. Added further layers to it does not improve things.


I'm sure the Italians did, perhaps they got sick of carrying baskets of Lira around and thus opted to join the Euro in the first place.


So, they got sick of the problems in their own country and opted to let a collective of other countries sort it out, rather than tackling it head on?

WHISKY TANGO??!!

There's enough external control in our lives without giving it away. Your avatar is in complete contradiction to your stance.


Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:50 am
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okenobi wrote:
Linux_User wrote:
okenobi wrote:
But who cares?! That's up to the Italians. If they don't like it, they vote in another government. Western democracy is largely hideously flawed. Added further layers to it does not improve things.


I'm sure the Italians did, perhaps they got sick of carrying baskets of Lira around and thus opted to join the Euro in the first place.


So, they got sick of the problems in their own country and opted to let a collective of other countries sort it out, rather than tackling it head on?

WHISKY TANGO??!!

There's enough external control in our lives without giving it away. Your avatar is in complete contradiction to your stance.


LOL! The EU (and, to be fair, the ECHR) has done more to safeguard my personal liberty and privacy in the last 5 minutes than Westminster ever has, ever, ever ever ever.

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Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:56 am
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I like the way the EU have been taking on Microsoft in the last few years.

I doubt individual countries would have the muscle. Sure, it's not personal liberty and freedom but meh - you get my point?

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Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:59 am
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Nick wrote:
I like the way the EU have been taking on Microsoft in the last few years.

I doubt individual countries would have the muscle. Sure, it's not personal liberty and freedom but meh - you get my point?

you dont like MS :lol:

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Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:04 pm
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Linux_User wrote:
LOL! The EU (and, to be fair, the ECHR) has done more to safeguard my personal liberty and privacy in the last 5 minutes than Westminster ever has, ever, ever ever ever.


I'd argue that the current government has largely been the problem with regards to liberty and the perception of it.

And the ECHR seems to have lead to more rights for criminals than innocent people in a lot of cases, though that may just be down to our idiotic judges and the way the thing seems so unbalanced in practice...

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Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:10 pm
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okenobi wrote:
If they don't like it, they vote in another government.


And yet Berlusconi persists.

I'm not sold on either stance. Heaven knows our governmental systems are far from a shining beacon of right in the western world, and I'm not sure the EU is much better. However, they have done a lot of good and don't forget much has been by the likes of the Daily Mail about 'crazy EU laws' which are nothing of the sort and were the public to trouble themselves into doing a 5 minute bit of research online would see it as such.
A lot of the coverage in this country is, of course, massively skewed by personal politics.

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Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:11 pm
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pcernie wrote:
Linux_User wrote:
LOL! The EU (and, to be fair, the ECHR) has done more to safeguard my personal liberty and privacy in the last 5 minutes than Westminster ever has, ever, ever ever ever.


I'd argue that the current government has largely been the problem with regards to liberty and the perception of it.

And the ECHR seems to have lead to more rights for criminals than innocent people in a lot of cases, though that may just be down to our idiotic judges and the way the thing seems so unbalanced in practice...


Or the way the media chooses what to report...

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Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:16 pm
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