Yes because the usa, canada, china, india, brazil, australia and russia all have innefective governments don't they (!) Puh-lease.




Fair enough ye, not going to happen mind especially with a labour government that's fundamental policies centre around the mistrust of people's ability to control their own lives and themselves and think they can benefit people by adding controls like banning substances or adding management in masses to every government department until there are more chiefs than Indians.


1. Being governed by anyone is being governed by your peers and when we realise they are just as human as us: with some being corrupt, some incompetent, some greedy, some moral over being logical, some power hungry, nearly all self interested etc. Fallible is what people are and humans are all fallible. So when we elect a house of humans with all those above qualities above to rule and we suddenly come into uproar every time they [LIFTED] up. Take the expenses scandal MPs if their doing the job right works 10-12 hour days 6 days a week and get the same money for such large amounts of responsibility and stress as an unaccountable and unquestioned junior banker. So 62k for a job that is devoid of independent thinking due to the party that got you requires loyalty to and the media has a special arse hole tearing spike with your name on it for every time you show human qualities not much of a carrot for the original thinking elite competent minds of our time is it or even those with only one of those qualities. MPs can’t enjoy a fair salary for their work and instability of their job due to the media again working peoples short-termist and kneejerk reactionary thought process so about 20 years ago MPs expand the scope of their expenses instead because they can say well this is only usable for work related necessities where really they were just trying to inflate their wages indirectly.
What really gets my goat is that the media knew this (expenses) was going on, they have for years because if something juicy went on last week we’d know today, but they saved the scandal for when labour was at its weakest, the new majority of labour MPS had spawned into big fruity scandal trees with so many fallacious practises gathered that the story would be the gift that kept on giving for months therefore giving the media one of the biggest power thrusting ego blow jobs it has had in years.
2.This government under our constitution has every mandate to govern why not? Here is the process: general election called by royal prerogative 646 MPs are elected, whichever party is most able to govern (in labours case of having a clear majority) elects a leader who selects a cabinet. If the current leader voids his seat as prime minister another is elected by the party of our mandated representatives to lead the government. Brown was unchallenged as a candidate so effectively got 100% of the vote just because labours MPs are all spineless and almost matrix agent like dickless wonders doesn’t make that any less true. Just because personality and leadership seems to matter so much nowadays doesn’t mean that PMs are elected by the public
I admit though the system needs radical reform and the constitution changing but such claims that our government has no right to govern is just daily mailesque rhetoric for devaluing the government.
3.Do people realise that we have veto rights on all EU legislation and can reject any, the current representative MPs (however gimpish they may be) let it pass so it shall be. The EU isn’t the problem it is the UK government being sine/use-less that is. They do have the mandate as well to do that because our government again many year ago gave the eu a mandate to recommend their legislation.

I really don't know enough about any of this.

But pure gut instinct tells me I want to be out of the EU.

That doth illustrate the supreme sublime and most subtle power in this nation nay the world THE MEDIA


Well we are, in all but currency with 80% of trade being reliant on EU members, shifting towards Europe over America seems safer in the long term and being in bed with the Americans is doing us no favours.
This is a globalised world and you need friends and more importantly the right friends. The dollar is the currency that everyone used as a reserve primarily but the euro is quickly becoming the new reserve currency.
Think of it like this in football at the start of the season as a player you have a choice to join two premier league clubs: now who do you join the fat bloated, debt ridden with an aging and inconsistent squad Manchester united who are so used to winning everything it would be nigh on impossible to gain glory in your career or do you join Manchester city a club that is ambitious and glory definite if something is won because none have won anything in 33 years.
And that is the same choice the UK makes.


Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time. -Winston Churchill.
Adding layers increases accountability look at our environment (outside of the AGW BS) our government ignored it but the EU sad we should clean up our act (i.e. rivers and beaches) otherwise it would be [LIFTED] literally.

People who don't like credit/debit cards, like myself and don’t want to have a wad of cash in their pocket that makes them target for professional pocket thieves. Also might stop people overspending on plastic because it doesn’t feel like you have spent anything.

+1 their stance in the face of globalised monopolies is fantastic and more than our own government could ever do. On a country by country basis in the European market trans-national monopolies have the power but united against that we have the power.

quote="adidan"]In.

We need to band together as a large economic unit with one currency to try and keep on a par with China in the coming years.

Plus it means I won't have to faff about changing money to and fro for a couple of months a year.
[/quote]
+1 definitely. Plus it’ll Make it easier to transfer European footballers before the transfer deadline.

Of course but the media uses singular stories to make a point about an entire system therefore exaggerates the problem. Making exceptions appear as if they are the rule.



The eu is most likely to force reform of Westminster after a Tory government that seems likely to be in favour of constitution, electoral and devolution reform.

Could do with a Tesco's here .

Not being able to set our own interest rate will just never make sense to me, not to mention it seems the likes of Mervyn King had a better and more realistic idea of the economy than the current and previous chancellor ever did. I seriously doubt handing any more power in that sense to the EU would be a benefit to us, especially since you could guarantee our politicians wouldn't rock the gravy boat if it came to it.

I don't get your football analogy, but that's probably because I don't watch football





I really do appreciate what you're saying and I agree that that often happens, but not all the stories I read were coming on with that agenda, and/or those were my own thoughts at the time

It probably won't be long now until someone un-flatpacks one

Simply to be anybody in the future economy we need to join up with other nations that means adopting a single currency between those nations so side with the has beens (Americans) or side with the will be (Europe)
The single interest rate will rarely disadvantage us in any severe way or any way that will outweigh the positives of the single currency. When we need interest rate decline most i.e. recession but Europe lower interest rates when recession happens as well because recession rarely happens in our country alone due to globalisation and increase integration with Europe.
Also it may help to keep interest rates at sensible levels when we are in the positive growth that becomes a housing bubble therefore resulting in a massive debt problem we have now and everyone being mortgage up to the hilt whilst never being able to afford housing if you are under the age of 30. Europe has jumped out of recession mainly where are we?

The main idea behind the EU single currency isn't economic growth or balance of trades but currency stability and international integration.

-It creates stability for our prices especially since fluctuations in the value of the pound often come to affect us in major inflationary jolts or sometimes deflationary.
-Makes travelling easier and business in Europe easier.

Now we're in the EU integration seems inevitable, look at the US historically the union of 13 states originally post independence formed together to tackle the difficulties of the new world with colonisation and the need to compete in a primordial globalised world that was very dangerous colonial powers had economic and military might that could easily take the early USAs freedom.
Originally the states had great amounts of independent power but post civil war the federal union gained the advantage. With federation being the way to compete and with the federal government creeping more power over state gov’t.
State government had truly become secondary to federal and lost any ability to evade federal rule when the civil rights bill of 1965 was enacted.

The same will happen in Europe and has happened but instead of a go west movement like the US it has been the manifest destiny of go east with the border being Russia. And federalisation is the main goal of most in power in Europe. And I don’t mind that as long as it becomes more democratic.

I'm not so sure, I think the last paper I read was the financial times in 2005, and that was only to play the stock market game in Economics (in economics we learnt almost purely about supply and demand, as well as how to cook sausages on a BBQ). I rarely watch the news or any sort of political programme, and will only stray onto news websites if they have some sort of technology section.

I've also got an irrational want to not lose the Great British Pound, I just think it sounds grander than "The Euro".

So no, I don't think it's the media, though if it is, jolly well done to it for getting something inside my head!

Instinctive reaction is oft the world of the tabloids and mainstream media.

Well I'm currently doing economics A2 level and we learn about all kinds of things: (just a copy of the sylabus topics for unit 3)

Short Run and Long Run Production Background to Supply - Short Run Costs
Long Run Costs: Economies & Diseconomies of Scale Business Revenues
Profits Objectives of Businesses
Divorce between Ownership and Control Technological Change, Costs & Supply in Long-run
The Growth of Firms Perfect Competition
Dynamics of Competition and Competitive Market Processes Monopoly
Price Discrimination Monopoly and Economic Efficiency
Oligopoly - Overview Oligopoly - Game Theory
Consumer and Producer Surplus
Contestable Markets Price Takers and Price Makers – Pricing Power
Market Structures – A Summary Market Failure - Introduction
Government Failure Market Failure – Externalities - Overview
Market Failure - Externalities - Policy Options
Market Failure - Public Goods Market Failure – Universities and Tuition Fees
Competition Policy Privatisation and Deregulation
Cost Benefit Analysis
Demand for Labour The Labour Force
Supply of Labour to Different Markets Wage Determination in Competitive Markets
Trade Unions and Monopsony Employers Labour Market - Discrimination
Labour Market - Migration Labour Market – The Ageing Population
The Distribution of Income and Wealth Government Policies towards Poverty

You're quite right, you are being irrational.

Doesn't make much odds in your own life though. Interest rates are at 0.5%, yet my credit card is about 18% and I've just got a loan at about 8%.

Some really good points here, thanks guys.

However, when I said it's too big to be effective, perhaps efficient would be a better choice of word. Many governments would be considered to be doing well, by economists/theorists/other governments/the two students in this thread that I know of. But would do the people being governed think....?

Have we nothing to trade in the UK? Do we NEED to join up with other countries, or can we just trade with them and play nice?

When I said I had no interest in a pissing contest with China I was told that we already are in one. That doesn't change my lack of interest, however

What do I want from government? I want them to provide infrastructure and services which I cannot and represent my interests on a range of matters. That's it. Does my government do this to my satisfaction (or many other peoples)? No, it does not. Whilst the EU might be better at doing those things than my own government (and it probably is), should we not all be focussing our energies on reforming our own system before allowing others to do it for us?

Rusty's quote from Bertrand Russell is superbly fascinating and illustrates one of the many problems I have with the entire western system. For me, Europe is merely another facet, an extension of that system and consequently, I cannot support it.

Out

Whilst there is a fair amount of money coming into the country from the European sector, it has to me match funded. For every pound requested you have to find a pound from the coffers and these days it's nigh impossible therefore we can't use it. Couple that with the fact that the UK contributes more to the fund than it recieves and it doesn't make economic sense.

Al

And that my dear friend is why you are living in a fantasy world.

Democracy is word that is anethma to the EU ideal. Actually do what the great unwashed want to. Just ask Ireland and Danemark about EU democracy.

The EU mantra "you will vote until you agree with us, that is if you are allowed to vote because we may be fundamentally changing our process but we dont want too many people actually having a say thats just not right"

It's affecting my savings, believe me

As with others here, I think we need to reform ourselves before we even consider teaming up with other countries, especially when we're getting clueless economy predictions from our own Chancellor - how am I supposed to believe someone like Eyebrows telling me we should get more entwined with Europe if it came to that, for instance?

Honestly? We just don't know enough about where we'd stand in a European super-state, and that's effectively what it would be it seems. It's always about the thin end of the wedge with politicians, no matter what party or voting block they belong to. The only thing that even makes that go in cycles is the public voting them in and out. And we even struggle with that tbf in the UK, never mind losing any say and power to Brussels...