Good on them, we need a debate. We need a debate on Iraq too. Why the hell did we go into either?

For starters Saddam and Osama detested each other and I still haven't seen the evidence to suggest he had anything to do with 9/11 aside from the word of the man who "claimed" to have done it. What, we trust his word now?

We went into Iraq because Blair (the war criminal) wanted us to.

give the armed forces that day as leave with travel passes to the protest, lets see if they really want to play …

I don't think soldiers should be allowed to protest against a war.

Islamists cancel Wootton Bassett protest plans

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8451014.stm



I wonder if that was why they really canceled it - the police could justify looking into their finances then, more than ever. Though they should probably be doing that anyway... Getting outlawed could also have become a badge of honour if they played it right.

It was a great publicity stunt, most people would have never heard of them if they hadn't done it.

Yeah, that confused the hell out of me.

Osama released a video saying that Saddam must die, he was a disgrace to Islam... 24 hours later, I heard Bush on German TV announcing that the video was conclusive proof that they were best friends. I actually 'phoned an English friend, because I thought I had misheard what either Osama or Bush had said... I hadn't

Unlike that notable charitable organisation OPEC. And by the way, what percentage of the oil revenues of the gulf states (for example) has been spent on it's general population - you know, things like schools and hospitals for the poor - as oppose to enormous vanity project skyscrapers, ludicrous palaces and platinum plated McLaren Mercedes. The west has a lot - a hell of a lot - to answer for in terms of financial probity, but compared to the Arab royal familes we're Scottish presbetarians. Try doing some research on how the immigrant workers who build the new shiny cities that the oil money is building are treated and then tell me they're any less morally bankrupt than we are.


I'm all in favour of each culture having the system of government it feels most appropriate but i think your view is bordering on the one eyed. Most of the gulf states are rotten on every level if looked at objectively, to a degree we would be ashamed of and wouldn't be allowed to get away with.

Jon

I'm not saying that the Gulf states aren't morally bankrupt - indeed I think they are.

However the idea that the West can go tramping round the world sorting out issues is based on the idea that our societies aren't morally deficient and that we somehow know better. The fact is that we don't. You and I enjoy fairly luxurious lifestyles off the proceeds of warmongering, imperialism, slavery, cruelty and exploitation.

The five largest arms dealers in the world are the US, UK, Russia, China and France. We make vast amounts of wonga by ensuring that there is always war to sell to.

I don't like what happens in the Middle East but I also have serious reservations over our moral authority to do anything about it. Perhaps we should remove the plank in our own eye before we try to remove the splinter in someone else's.

They're not allowed to. It's illegal (well, technically, it's against Queen's regulations but going to prison is going to prison regardless of the outfits the jailors wear) for a member of the armed forces to take part in any overt political activity while in service. They can do what they like once they leave the army, obviously.

Jon

Fair enough


At a fairly detatched level - most of the wealth we now enjoy is based around a financial con trick that started off with a 'stake' of those resources. We haven't had anything like an empire for a century and haven't been involved in slavery for twice as long, for example. However the wealth of a lot of other states in the world is based around those disreputable practices right now. This is entirely a separate issue as to whether democracy is a better form of government than a kahlifate (for example), however.


With all due respect, they are simply among the biggest economies in the world. They're the biggest arms producers but they're also the biggest producers of lots of other things as well. Oil is the obvious exception to that.


This is where I suspect we differ. You appear to me to the be of the opinion that we are awful and therefore we're in no position to tell anyone else what to do. I'm of the opinion we're awful but even so we're a doing darned sight better than what a lot of people seem to be doing otherwise. Isn't there a Winston Churchill quote along the lines of 'Democracy is a terrible form of government but it's still better than any of the alternatives we've come up with".


As I've said, IMO, our hands are bloody but at least we've learned. Quite a lot of people round the world seem intent on re-making our mistakes or worse.

Jon

*Sigh*

No. It's an Afghan country, which no one has the right to occupy.

Why do they have to bring religion into everything?

I say let them march - puts them all in the same place for the BNP to find them ^_^

I think everyone's aware of what goes on in war - it's horrific. We know there are two sides. To make it your problem is stupid. If you want to live here then bloody respect our ways. God knows about 80% of my family are either middle-eastern Muslims or Chinese Buddhists and you don't see them shouting about how it's "so unfair" that their religion isn't the religion of the country.

Hardline Islamist Groups To Be Banned

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-New ... 9644?f=rss

Be interesting to see what this does for their numbers...

<<Awaits the Guardian article saying this is "Islamophobic">>

How dare The Guardian call me that!