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paulzolo wrote:
The more we try to get things working in IE6, the more we are held back. MS are on IE8, and even THAT doesn’t fully work to standards, though it is much better.

Companies claiming that their infrastructure is frozen because a web browser could bork their systems clearly haven’t thought that whole OS dependency thing through properly. If you HAVE to have IE6 installed for whatever excuse you are sticking to, then you really, really should have a second more up to date available.


You can only have one version of IE at a time on Windows. In a Windows shop, IE allows browsers to authenticate the user, so is necessary for many apps.

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Eventually, those sites you rely on WILL start to kick IE6 out the door (note that some are already doing that).


And we're looking forward to that day :)

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What happens when you replace a machine? Can you still specify Windows 95?


No, you buy a machine and put your corporate image onto it regardless of the original OS.

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Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:23 pm
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I've pushed through IE8 on the WSUS server since I started at my new job. Only real problem is a lot of the machines aren't man enough to run it :(

Having worked as a user (app developer who was lumbered with the crap the IT department gave me), an administrator and a web developer, the sooner IE6 dies, the better.

There is no way I would push IE6 on anybody, I don't hate anybody enough to do that...

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Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:14 pm
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Coref wrote:
paulzolo wrote:
The more we try to get things working in IE6, the more we are held back. MS are on IE8, and even THAT doesn’t fully work to standards, though it is much better.

Companies claiming that their infrastructure is frozen because a web browser could bork their systems clearly haven’t thought that whole OS dependency thing through properly. If you HAVE to have IE6 installed for whatever excuse you are sticking to, then you really, really should have a second more up to date available.


You can only have one version of IE at a time on Windows. In a Windows shop, IE allows browsers to authenticate the user, so is necessary for many apps.


What apps? I’ve not come across a web site which has specified IE.

And, for the record, it is possible to have more than one version of IE installed. On my Win XP install, I have an app which runs IE6, 7 and 8.

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Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:49 pm
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paulzolo wrote:
The more we try to get things working in IE6, the more we are held back. MS are on IE8, and even THAT doesn’t fully work to standards, though it is much better.

Companies claiming that their infrastructure is frozen because a web browser could bork their systems clearly haven’t thought that whole OS dependency thing through properly. If you HAVE to have IE6 installed for whatever excuse you are sticking to, then you really, really should have a second more up to date available. Eventually, those sites you rely on WILL start to kick IE6 out the door (note that some are already doing that).

That's one worse than vendor lock-in which is also stupid.

To have your entire infrastructure locked into one particular program, no matter what it is, can only be considered folly of the highest order, no?

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Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:05 pm
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paulzolo wrote:
What apps? I’ve not come across a web site which has specified IE.

A lot of intranet software is designed for IE6. Also, a lot of applications embed IE6 to display information to the user. :roll:

paulzolo wrote:
And, for the record, it is possible to have more than one version of IE installed. On my Win XP install, I have an app which runs IE6, 7 and 8.

If it is the same one we used, it actually runs IE8, but does some tricky follery to emulate IE6 and IE7. The problem is, IE6 emulation isn't exact. We had a couple of devs testing web sites using it, the site looked okay, it was launched and the customer rang up screaming, because they were using "real" IE6 internally and the formatting was all over the place, even though the Multiple IEs was showing it looking perfect... :?

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Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:23 pm
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paulzolo wrote:
Coref wrote:
paulzolo wrote:
The more we try to get things working in IE6, the more we are held back. MS are on IE8, and even THAT doesn’t fully work to standards, though it is much better.

Companies claiming that their infrastructure is frozen because a web browser could bork their systems clearly haven’t thought that whole OS dependency thing through properly. If you HAVE to have IE6 installed for whatever excuse you are sticking to, then you really, really should have a second more up to date available.


You can only have one version of IE at a time on Windows. In a Windows shop, IE allows browsers to authenticate the user, so is necessary for many apps.


What apps? I’ve not come across a web site which has specified IE.


Sharepoint & SQL Server reporting services spring to mind. My work has a load of internal apps that authenticate using the same method. It's a single check box in IIS to turn this authentication on and I believe there's an Apache module too.

Another feature of Ie that you may not realise people use is locking websites down with trusted zones which can prevent users installing rubbish off the Internet. It's a lot easier to lock down IE like this than say firefox.

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And, for the record, it is possible to have more than one version of IE installed. On my Win XP install, I have an app which runs IE6, 7 and 8.


Is it supported?

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Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:24 pm
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paulzolo wrote:
What apps? I’ve not come across a web site which has specified IE.

We have a time recording system that insists on MS Java. IE Tab in Firefox used to work but doesn't anymore so I have to use IE. IE7 is not officially supported so the auto update was blocked. I can't wait for the new system.

We also have a "partner workspace" which I think is based on Sharepoint, which sort of works with Firefox but full functionallity (being able to move/ delete files) requires IE. This does work with IE tab so I can avoid IE.


Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:39 pm
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Coref wrote:
Sharepoint & SQL Server reporting services spring to mind. My work has a load of internal apps that authenticate using the same method. It's a single check box in IIS to turn this authentication on and I believe there's an Apache module too.

Another feature of Ie that you may not realise people use is locking websites down with trusted zones which can prevent users installing rubbish off the Internet. It's a lot easier to lock down IE like this than say firefox.

I use those with IE8, without problems. We are talking about restricting people to IE6, as opposed to IE in general.

Coref wrote:
Quote:
And, for the record, it is possible to have more than one version of IE installed. On my Win XP install, I have an app which runs IE6, 7 and 8.


Is it supported?

No, not officially and if it is the same one we used, its emulation of older versions isn't accurate.

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Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:20 pm
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big_D wrote:
Coref wrote:
Sharepoint & SQL Server reporting services spring to mind. My work has a load of internal apps that authenticate using the same method. It's a single check box in IIS to turn this authentication on and I believe there's an Apache module too.

Another feature of Ie that you may not realise people use is locking websites down with trusted zones which can prevent users installing rubbish off the Internet. It's a lot easier to lock down IE like this than say firefox.

I use those with IE8, without problems. We are talking about restricting people to IE6, as opposed to IE in general.

I was answering Paul's point about authentication via browser in general rather specifically IE6. I trying to point out why IE in a "Microsoft shop" often makes sense.

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Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:37 pm
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big_D wrote:
paulzolo wrote:
What apps? I’ve not come across a web site which has specified IE.

A lot of intranet software is designed for IE6. Also, a lot of applications embed IE6 to display information to the user. :roll:

paulzolo wrote:
And, for the record, it is possible to have more than one version of IE installed. On my Win XP install, I have an app which runs IE6, 7 and 8.

If it is the same one we used, it actually runs IE8, but does some tricky follery to emulate IE6 and IE7. The problem is, IE6 emulation isn't exact. We had a couple of devs testing web sites using it, the site looked okay, it was launched and the customer rang up screaming, because they were using "real" IE6 internally and the formatting was all over the place, even though the Multiple IEs was showing it looking perfect... :?


It’s not Multiple IE (that application has ceased development). Without firing up Windows XP (I’m too tired to bother this evening - I’d have to cope with all the bloody updates it wants to install) I can’t remember the app’s name. How else am I going to test all three flavours of the browser? Three XP disk images? Isn’t that slightly naughty?

As ar as my Freeway Action work goes, I have specifically stated that I will no longer be supporting IE6. If it works, then that’s just gravy, but I refuse to go out of my way any more. It’s counter productive and a waste of my time.

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Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:25 pm
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paulzolo wrote:
As ar as my Freeway Action work goes, I have specifically stated that I will no longer be supporting IE6. If it works, then that’s just gravy, but I refuse to go out of my way any more. It’s counter productive and a waste of my time.

That's your prerogative. I guess you don't have many contracts with the civil service.

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Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:02 am
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paulzolo wrote:
It’s not Multiple IE (that application has ceased development). Without firing up Windows XP (I’m too tired to bother this evening - I’d have to cope with all the bloody updates it wants to install) I can’t remember the app’s name. How else am I going to test all three flavours of the browser? Three XP disk images? Isn’t that slightly naughty?

How is its emulation of older versions of IE? The reason we stopped using Multiple IE was because it just couldn't accurately display them.

As to multiple images, Microsoft provide (provided?) a VMWare Player image of XP Home free for testing purposes. It came with SP2/IE6 installed and you can update it. We set up two copies of the image, one with IE6 and the other with IE7 patched. Then we had genuine copies of IE installed, no emulation.

paulzolo wrote:
As ar as my Freeway Action work goes, I have specifically stated that I will no longer be supporting IE6. If it works, then that’s just gravy, but I refuse to go out of my way any more. It’s counter productive and a waste of my time.

I would like that option. We generated business websites, so we had to develop what the customer wants and if the customer says over 25% of their visitors have IE6, we have to cope with IE6 as well.

As a web developer, I would have loved that sort of freedom, unfortunately we would never have got / kept the contracts if the sites didn't work with IE6. Our customer just couldn't afford to lose 200,000€ a month in revenue by ignoring IE6 compatibility...

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big_D wrote:
paulzolo wrote:
It’s not Multiple IE (that application has ceased development). Without firing up Windows XP (I’m too tired to bother this evening - I’d have to cope with all the bloody updates it wants to install) I can’t remember the app’s name. How else am I going to test all three flavours of the browser? Three XP disk images? Isn’t that slightly naughty?

How is its emulation of older versions of IE? The reason we stopped using Multiple IE was because it just couldn't accurately display them.


http://www.my-debugbar.com/wiki/IETester/HomePage

big_D wrote:
As to multiple images, Microsoft provide (provided?) a VMWare Player image of XP Home free for testing purposes. It came with SP2/IE6 installed and you can update it. We set up two copies of the image, one with IE6 and the other with IE7 patched. Then we had genuine copies of IE installed, no emulation.

paulzolo wrote:
As ar as my Freeway Action work goes, I have specifically stated that I will no longer be supporting IE6. If it works, then that’s just gravy, but I refuse to go out of my way any more. It’s counter productive and a waste of my time.

I would like that option. We generated business websites, so we had to develop what the customer wants and if the customer says over 25% of their visitors have IE6, we have to cope with IE6 as well.

As a web developer, I would have loved that sort of freedom, unfortunately we would never have got / kept the contracts if the sites didn't work with IE6. Our customer just couldn't afford to lose 200,000€ a month in revenue by ignoring IE6 compatibility...


As far as my Actions go, they are not obligatory, and Freeway does a lot to rectify IE6 compatibility anyway. The thing is that I will spend X amount of time getting something working, and then another Y amount of time (where Y > X) getting it to work in IE6. I feel for a browser that has not been supported since 2004 (the last release of IE6) that this getting more and more ridiculous. So far, I have had no complaints from people who use my Actions.

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Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:11 am
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I try to support IE6 on corporate sites, but on sites that are for the consumer, I don't bother. I don't have the skill for very complicated stuff, so so far, it hasn't been too much of a problem.

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Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:09 am
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paulzolo wrote:
As far as my Actions go, they are not obligatory, and Freeway does a lot to rectify IE6 compatibility anyway. The thing is that I will spend X amount of time getting something working, and then another Y amount of time (where Y > X) getting it to work in IE6. I feel for a browser that has not been supported since 2004 (the last release of IE6) that this getting more and more ridiculous. So far, I have had no complaints from people who use my Actions.

Yep, that about sums it up. Breaking webiste code, so that it still works, but also works in IE6 is a complete pain! But it is something we have to do, because the clients set the rules. If we had told them we don't do IE6 compatibility any more, we would have lost the projects. As the sites brought in hundreds of thousands a year, we couldn't afford to piss off the client.

And IE6 support stopped in late 2008 / early 2009, not 2004...

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Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:35 am
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